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	<title>Comments on: Are Mormon Academics Winning the Debate with Evangelicals?</title>
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	<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/02/22/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/</link>
	<description>Stuff they don't talk about in Sunday School</description>
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		<title>By: synnove ellingsen</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/02/22/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/comment-page-1/#comment-5293</link>
		<dc:creator>synnove ellingsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 08:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=929#comment-5293</guid>
		<description>many interesting comments here, about the GD book an dits simplicity, I guess it is also because they ned to make sure mambers with growing numbers do not misrepresent the church also by telling misconceptions about basics...so its important from many aspects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>many interesting comments here, about the GD book an dits simplicity, I guess it is also because they ned to make sure mambers with growing numbers do not misrepresent the church also by telling misconceptions about basics&#8230;so its important from many aspects.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rosenvall</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/02/22/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/comment-page-1/#comment-5285</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rosenvall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=929#comment-5285</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not an expert in Old World archeology, but I like you, find it fascinating that there isn&#039;t more archeological evidence of the events in the Old Testament, yet many believe in it based on it&#039;s teachings, not unlike the Book of Mormon. I&#039;ve found a lot of parallels between the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon, both theologically, as expected, as well as geographically. 

Many don&#039;t know that there is actually another river called Sidon in Lebenon (today it is know as Saida: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidon). The word Hermounts used in the Book of Mormon is similar to the word &quot;Hermonites&quot; (Ps. 42:6), see BD Hermon. The relationship between the River Sidon in Lebanon and Mount Hermon, also appears in the Book of Mormon between the River Sidon and Hermounts geographically. When you understand that Mulek probably came from this area in Israel it makes a lot more sense why many of the areas in the Book of Mormon have similar names in the north part of the Book of Mormon that match areas in northern Israel.

Anyways, I look forward to your posting on archeology from the Old Testament.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not an expert in Old World archeology, but I like you, find it fascinating that there isn&#8217;t more archeological evidence of the events in the Old Testament, yet many believe in it based on it&#8217;s teachings, not unlike the Book of Mormon. I&#8217;ve found a lot of parallels between the Old Testament and the Book of Mormon, both theologically, as expected, as well as geographically. </p>
<p>Many don&#8217;t know that there is actually another river called Sidon in Lebenon (today it is know as Saida: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidon)" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidon)</a>. The word Hermounts used in the Book of Mormon is similar to the word &#8220;Hermonites&#8221; (Ps. 42:6), see BD Hermon. The relationship between the River Sidon in Lebanon and Mount Hermon, also appears in the Book of Mormon between the River Sidon and Hermounts geographically. When you understand that Mulek probably came from this area in Israel it makes a lot more sense why many of the areas in the Book of Mormon have similar names in the north part of the Book of Mormon that match areas in northern Israel.</p>
<p>Anyways, I look forward to your posting on archeology from the Old Testament.</p>
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		<title>By: mh</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/02/22/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/comment-page-1/#comment-5284</link>
		<dc:creator>mh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 19:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=929#comment-5284</guid>
		<description>david, yes I am very familiar with the lack od evidence concerning the Exodus and have been planning a post on that topic as well.  with Easter approaching I think it will be very timely.  I haven&#039;t done much research on uto-aztecan people.  thanks for the links.  I have heard a reference or 2 about their language and would like to research these claims more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>david, yes I am very familiar with the lack od evidence concerning the Exodus and have been planning a post on that topic as well.  with Easter approaching I think it will be very timely.  I haven&#8217;t done much research on uto-aztecan people.  thanks for the links.  I have heard a reference or 2 about their language and would like to research these claims more.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rosenvall</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/02/22/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/comment-page-1/#comment-5280</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rosenvall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 05:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=929#comment-5280</guid>
		<description>The issue is, unless we can identify what the Book of Mormon states about the materials of their structures, and any identifying features, how are we going to know we have found a Nephite or Lamanite structure? We have assumed so many things through artists renditions and the hopes that the Nephites are in Meso-America that we have overlooked what is actually stated and may be looking in the wrong place. If the Book of Mormon is true then then the geographical assertions in the Book of Mormon should be identifiable. I believe we are looking in the wrong places, that is what their is so much confusion if we focus on the archeology before identifying the geography.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The issue is, unless we can identify what the Book of Mormon states about the materials of their structures, and any identifying features, how are we going to know we have found a Nephite or Lamanite structure? We have assumed so many things through artists renditions and the hopes that the Nephites are in Meso-America that we have overlooked what is actually stated and may be looking in the wrong place. If the Book of Mormon is true then then the geographical assertions in the Book of Mormon should be identifiable. I believe we are looking in the wrong places, that is what their is so much confusion if we focus on the archeology before identifying the geography.</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/02/22/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/comment-page-1/#comment-5279</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 05:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=929#comment-5279</guid>
		<description>Sorenson places the city of Nephi at the site of modern Guatamala City, which has been continuously occupied since that era or before. He would have no trouble with the notion of the original structures of temples being of wood -- it was the mounds or hills they were built on that made them sacred places more than the building material (both in the new world and the mid east) Stone pyramids don&#039;t show up in the records of archeology for 1000 years or so later.

So I&#039;m a little confused about what the issue we&#039;re discussing actually is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorenson places the city of Nephi at the site of modern Guatamala City, which has been continuously occupied since that era or before. He would have no trouble with the notion of the original structures of temples being of wood &#8212; it was the mounds or hills they were built on that made them sacred places more than the building material (both in the new world and the mid east) Stone pyramids don&#8217;t show up in the records of archeology for 1000 years or so later.</p>
<p>So I&#8217;m a little confused about what the issue we&#8217;re discussing actually is.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rosenvall</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/02/22/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/comment-page-1/#comment-5278</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rosenvall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 05:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=929#comment-5278</guid>
		<description>I think your comment regarding Anasazi is very insightful. Some believe the Anasazi people emerged as early as 1200 BC (but this is highly debated). The height of their activity was from AD 700-1200. It is this later period of time that correlates well with the Book of Mormon record. The interesting thing about the Anasazi is their overlap with the Uto-Aztecan people in geography. I suspect that after the destruction at Cumorah the remnants who survived scattered and broke into different groups, some of which could have been the Anasazi. If you get a chance you need to look at the Uto-Aztecan people, where they originated from and the similarities of their language to Hebrew. Brian Stubbs has done a lot of research on this topic (http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=5&amp;num=1&amp;id=112, see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics_and_the_Book_of_Mormon).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your comment regarding Anasazi is very insightful. Some believe the Anasazi people emerged as early as 1200 BC (but this is highly debated). The height of their activity was from AD 700-1200. It is this later period of time that correlates well with the Book of Mormon record. The interesting thing about the Anasazi is their overlap with the Uto-Aztecan people in geography. I suspect that after the destruction at Cumorah the remnants who survived scattered and broke into different groups, some of which could have been the Anasazi. If you get a chance you need to look at the Uto-Aztecan people, where they originated from and the similarities of their language to Hebrew. Brian Stubbs has done a lot of research on this topic (<a href="http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=5&amp;num=1&amp;id=112" rel="nofollow">http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=5&amp;num=1&amp;id=112</a>, see also: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics_and_the_Book_of_Mormon)" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics_and_the_Book_of_Mormon)</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rosenvall</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/02/22/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/comment-page-1/#comment-5277</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rosenvall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 04:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=929#comment-5277</guid>
		<description>There is no doubt the Nephites built temples and used temples. They also built synagogues. In fact when Nephi first arrived in the land of Nephi, with a very small party, probably less than 50, it states “I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance. And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine” (2 Ne. 5:15-16).

This is the best example of the size, shape and material of what a temple was built of in the Book of Mormon. From this it appears it was made of wood, and rectangular in shape, which was 90’ long x 30’ wide (1 Kgs. 6:2). With just a few people I can’t imagine Nephi building a large pyramid and stating that it was built similar to Solomon’s temple. The other unique thing about the verse above is that there was copper, gold and silver in great abundance. This is a huge clue as to where the land may be, as I suspect they didn’t mine it like we do today, but rather it would have been in outcroppings on the surface.

I assume from this verse the Nephites built temples like the Jews did and not like the Egyptians. The temples we should be looking for are rectangular buildings with a inner court and an outer court with a surrounding wall around the whole structure. In the Book of Mormon it states clearly that there were walls around their temples (Mosiah 2:7; 11:10) similar to Jewish temples. The pyramids just don’t fit, it was the apostate’s that built pyramids not the children of Israel. From everything I read the Nephites appear as an analog to the children of Israel.

I hope we do find remnants of Nephite temples but not unlike the search for king Solomon’s temple in Jerusalem, which we still haven’t found, even being built with better materials around the same time period, in a location we know. The key, in my opinion, to finding Nephite ruins is first to understand what the record states about potential ruins so that we can match it to something we find. Without that matching ability we are just speculating.

I believe the Aztecs are descendants of Lehi (specifically Nephites that rejected the gospel) after A.D. 400, after they had destroyed the church and wandered away, not unlike how the Jews were scattered after the death of Christ. I believe that is why we see so many cultural things that match the Book of Mormon in Meso-America.

I don’t know if you have done any research on archeological evidence that the children of Israel lived in Egypt for hundreds of years and then wandered in the desert for 40 years and then established themselves in the land of Israel. Today there is virtually no archeological evidence of the events recorded in the Old Testament, just geographical evidence, which causes many to be disenfranchised with the Old Testament. The same problem may exist for the Book of Mormon people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no doubt the Nephites built temples and used temples. They also built synagogues. In fact when Nephi first arrived in the land of Nephi, with a very small party, probably less than 50, it states “I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance. And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine” (2 Ne. 5:15-16).</p>
<p>This is the best example of the size, shape and material of what a temple was built of in the Book of Mormon. From this it appears it was made of wood, and rectangular in shape, which was 90’ long x 30’ wide (1 Kgs. 6:2). With just a few people I can’t imagine Nephi building a large pyramid and stating that it was built similar to Solomon’s temple. The other unique thing about the verse above is that there was copper, gold and silver in great abundance. This is a huge clue as to where the land may be, as I suspect they didn’t mine it like we do today, but rather it would have been in outcroppings on the surface.</p>
<p>I assume from this verse the Nephites built temples like the Jews did and not like the Egyptians. The temples we should be looking for are rectangular buildings with a inner court and an outer court with a surrounding wall around the whole structure. In the Book of Mormon it states clearly that there were walls around their temples (Mosiah 2:7; 11:10) similar to Jewish temples. The pyramids just don’t fit, it was the apostate’s that built pyramids not the children of Israel. From everything I read the Nephites appear as an analog to the children of Israel.</p>
<p>I hope we do find remnants of Nephite temples but not unlike the search for king Solomon’s temple in Jerusalem, which we still haven’t found, even being built with better materials around the same time period, in a location we know. The key, in my opinion, to finding Nephite ruins is first to understand what the record states about potential ruins so that we can match it to something we find. Without that matching ability we are just speculating.</p>
<p>I believe the Aztecs are descendants of Lehi (specifically Nephites that rejected the gospel) after A.D. 400, after they had destroyed the church and wandered away, not unlike how the Jews were scattered after the death of Christ. I believe that is why we see so many cultural things that match the Book of Mormon in Meso-America.</p>
<p>I don’t know if you have done any research on archeological evidence that the children of Israel lived in Egypt for hundreds of years and then wandered in the desert for 40 years and then established themselves in the land of Israel. Today there is virtually no archeological evidence of the events recorded in the Old Testament, just geographical evidence, which causes many to be disenfranchised with the Old Testament. The same problem may exist for the Book of Mormon people.</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/02/22/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/comment-page-1/#comment-5276</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 02:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=929#comment-5276</guid>
		<description>David, I just rescued your post from Feb 27--it was in my spam folder for some reason.  Do a search for the word temple in the Book of Mormon at LDS.org--you&#039;ll find at least 20 references.  Now are these &quot;great structures&quot;?

If we can find temples of the Philistines in Israel that date prior to the Book of Mormon time period, and we can find Aztec, Mayan, Olmec, or other structures that seem to resemble a temple, I don&#039;t think it is a great stretch to wonder if these are Book of Mormon structures.  Maybe they are, maybe they&#039;re not.  People who support the idea that they are adobe have found Anasazi ruins in the 4 corners region of Utah that may come from 6000 BC, then I think it is reasonable to assume Book of Mormon structures could be found.  Aztec or Olmec proponents think perhaps stone pyramids might be these temples.

Now, as a neutral party, I&#039;m going to listen to these ideas and try to find strengths or weaknesses.  I don&#039;t know if these temple references refer to adobe, stone, timber, or other structure, but there are enough ancient structures out there from far older than the Book of Mormon period.  To assume that Book of Mormon dwellings or temples won&#039;t be found doesn&#039;t sound like a reasonable position to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, I just rescued your post from Feb 27&#8211;it was in my spam folder for some reason.  Do a search for the word temple in the Book of Mormon at LDS.org&#8211;you&#8217;ll find at least 20 references.  Now are these &#8220;great structures&#8221;?</p>
<p>If we can find temples of the Philistines in Israel that date prior to the Book of Mormon time period, and we can find Aztec, Mayan, Olmec, or other structures that seem to resemble a temple, I don&#8217;t think it is a great stretch to wonder if these are Book of Mormon structures.  Maybe they are, maybe they&#8217;re not.  People who support the idea that they are adobe have found Anasazi ruins in the 4 corners region of Utah that may come from 6000 BC, then I think it is reasonable to assume Book of Mormon structures could be found.  Aztec or Olmec proponents think perhaps stone pyramids might be these temples.</p>
<p>Now, as a neutral party, I&#8217;m going to listen to these ideas and try to find strengths or weaknesses.  I don&#8217;t know if these temple references refer to adobe, stone, timber, or other structure, but there are enough ancient structures out there from far older than the Book of Mormon period.  To assume that Book of Mormon dwellings or temples won&#8217;t be found doesn&#8217;t sound like a reasonable position to me.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rosenvall</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/02/22/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/comment-page-1/#comment-5273</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rosenvall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 04:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=929#comment-5273</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-5267&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Noel &lt;/a&gt; I would love to know what they used as their sample texts from Cowdery and Rigdon. I&#039;m sure their computer models can find some correlation, but I would like to read it from the standpoint of doctrine or history as compared to the Book of Mormon. It would also be interesting to add in people like Shakespear or Lewis as a control.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-5267" rel="nofollow">@Noel </a> I would love to know what they used as their sample texts from Cowdery and Rigdon. I&#8217;m sure their computer models can find some correlation, but I would like to read it from the standpoint of doctrine or history as compared to the Book of Mormon. It would also be interesting to add in people like Shakespear or Lewis as a control.</p>
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		<title>By: David Rosenvall</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2010/02/22/are-mormon-academics-winning-the-debate-with-evangelicals/comment-page-1/#comment-5272</link>
		<dc:creator>David Rosenvall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Feb 2010 04:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=929#comment-5272</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-5265&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Mormon Heretic &lt;/a&gt; Timber and cement maybe an extremely &quot;unwanted&quot; position but the text of the Book of Mormon does not record much evidence for anything but timber and cement. I would love anyone who can provide evidence in the Book of Mormon to stone buildings shaped like pyramids. The key to finding the Book of Mormon lands is to match what is recorded in the Book of Mormon to the proposed geography. Far too often we base our understanding on artists renditions and what we hope to find.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-5265" rel="nofollow">@Mormon Heretic </a> Timber and cement maybe an extremely &#8220;unwanted&#8221; position but the text of the Book of Mormon does not record much evidence for anything but timber and cement. I would love anyone who can provide evidence in the Book of Mormon to stone buildings shaped like pyramids. The key to finding the Book of Mormon lands is to match what is recorded in the Book of Mormon to the proposed geography. Far too often we base our understanding on artists renditions and what we hope to find.</p>
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