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	<title>Comments on: Intro to &#8220;More Wives Than One&#8221; by Kathryn Daynes</title>
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	<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/10/25/introduction-to-more-wives-than-one-by-kathryn-daynes/</link>
	<description>Stuff they don't talk about in Sunday School</description>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic &#187; Daynes History of Marriage (Part 2)</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/10/25/introduction-to-more-wives-than-one-by-kathryn-daynes/comment-page-1/#comment-4029</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic &#187; Daynes History of Marriage (Part 2)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 21:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=772#comment-4029</guid>
		<description>[...] the book More Wives than One by Kathryn Daynes, an associate professor of history at BYU.   In my previous post on the book, I mentioned that marriage wasn&#8217;t as regulated as it is today.  There were no [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the book More Wives than One by Kathryn Daynes, an associate professor of history at BYU.   In my previous post on the book, I mentioned that marriage wasn&#8217;t as regulated as it is today.  There were no [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/10/25/introduction-to-more-wives-than-one-by-kathryn-daynes/comment-page-1/#comment-3944</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Oct 2009 02:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=772#comment-3944</guid>
		<description>Brent, I don&#039;t want to side-track the issue here about temples, but I would like to hear your take on my hypothetical example.  Can you comment over here about this scenario?

http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/19/the-anti-polygamy-raids/comment-page-1/#comment-3618</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brent, I don&#8217;t want to side-track the issue here about temples, but I would like to hear your take on my hypothetical example.  Can you comment over here about this scenario?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/19/the-anti-polygamy-raids/comment-page-1/#comment-3618" rel="nofollow">http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/19/the-anti-polygamy-raids/comment-page-1/#comment-3618</a></p>
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		<title>By: Brent Hartman</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/10/25/introduction-to-more-wives-than-one-by-kathryn-daynes/comment-page-1/#comment-3939</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent Hartman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 15:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=772#comment-3939</guid>
		<description>Mormon Heretic,

Sorry I didn&#039;t respond to your question.  I live off-grid, so my internet access can be somewhat spotty.

My view is that the laws and ordinances of the gospel are worth fighting to death over.  In Doctrine and Covenants, section 98, the Lord says, &quot;Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy.&quot;

From the first Brigham Young quote I provided above, you can see that some ordinances must be done in the temple, so temples are very important.  However, they are not as important as doing those things that maintain priesthood authority.  Temples are only made temples through the priesthood.  In other words, lost buildings are easier to replace than lost priesthood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mormon Heretic,</p>
<p>Sorry I didn&#8217;t respond to your question.  I live off-grid, so my internet access can be somewhat spotty.</p>
<p>My view is that the laws and ordinances of the gospel are worth fighting to death over.  In Doctrine and Covenants, section 98, the Lord says, &#8220;Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy.&#8221;</p>
<p>From the first Brigham Young quote I provided above, you can see that some ordinances must be done in the temple, so temples are very important.  However, they are not as important as doing those things that maintain priesthood authority.  Temples are only made temples through the priesthood.  In other words, lost buildings are easier to replace than lost priesthood.</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/10/25/introduction-to-more-wives-than-one-by-kathryn-daynes/comment-page-1/#comment-3932</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 06:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=772#comment-3932</guid>
		<description>Brent, welcome back.  I asked you a question on my Anti-polygamy raids post, and it seems you nearly answered it here.  Thanks for the quotes--those were very interesting.  I am curious if you feel the temples were worth fighting to the death over, but from the quotes above, it seems you think the temples are expendable.  I don&#039;t understand concubinage.  Perhaps you could explain that better.  From the Cannon and Snow quotes, those don&#039;t seem in line with David and Solomon&#039;s practices of concubinage.

Seth, I&#039;m currently reading chapters on divorce during this period, and it seems that marriages were just as easy to get into, as to get out of.  To get a divorce in Utah required little justification.  While the Mormons didn&#039;t abuse the divorce laws, non-Mormons actually appealed to Utah&#039;s lax divorce laws causing a change in the statute.  That&#039;s not to say divorce among Mormonsdidn&#039;t happen, because it certainly did.  In fact, it seems much more prevalent than I would have imagined.  I plan a post on divorce during this period, as I found it interesting.

Heber, I agree that inspiration of the leader played a bigger role than free-agency, I guess for both good and bad.  If I were transported in time back to this time period, I would have probably joined the RLDS.

Tom, you may long for the good old days, but I&#039;m very happy in my current day.

Bishop Rick--good answer--made me laugh!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brent, welcome back.  I asked you a question on my Anti-polygamy raids post, and it seems you nearly answered it here.  Thanks for the quotes&#8211;those were very interesting.  I am curious if you feel the temples were worth fighting to the death over, but from the quotes above, it seems you think the temples are expendable.  I don&#8217;t understand concubinage.  Perhaps you could explain that better.  From the Cannon and Snow quotes, those don&#8217;t seem in line with David and Solomon&#8217;s practices of concubinage.</p>
<p>Seth, I&#8217;m currently reading chapters on divorce during this period, and it seems that marriages were just as easy to get into, as to get out of.  To get a divorce in Utah required little justification.  While the Mormons didn&#8217;t abuse the divorce laws, non-Mormons actually appealed to Utah&#8217;s lax divorce laws causing a change in the statute.  That&#8217;s not to say divorce among Mormonsdidn&#8217;t happen, because it certainly did.  In fact, it seems much more prevalent than I would have imagined.  I plan a post on divorce during this period, as I found it interesting.</p>
<p>Heber, I agree that inspiration of the leader played a bigger role than free-agency, I guess for both good and bad.  If I were transported in time back to this time period, I would have probably joined the RLDS.</p>
<p>Tom, you may long for the good old days, but I&#8217;m very happy in my current day.</p>
<p>Bishop Rick&#8211;good answer&#8211;made me laugh!</p>
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		<title>By: Bishop Rick</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/10/25/introduction-to-more-wives-than-one-by-kathryn-daynes/comment-page-1/#comment-3928</link>
		<dc:creator>Bishop Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 04:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=772#comment-3928</guid>
		<description>MH, if only I had occasion to this &quot;power&quot; you speak of, I would surely lust for more and be jealous of he who had thusly attained.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MH, if only I had occasion to this &#8220;power&#8221; you speak of, I would surely lust for more and be jealous of he who had thusly attained.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/10/25/introduction-to-more-wives-than-one-by-kathryn-daynes/comment-page-1/#comment-3923</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 00:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=772#comment-3923</guid>
		<description>Makes you long for the &quot;good old days,&quot; doesn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Makes you long for the &#8220;good old days,&#8221; doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
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		<title>By: Heber13</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/10/25/introduction-to-more-wives-than-one-by-kathryn-daynes/comment-page-1/#comment-3920</link>
		<dc:creator>Heber13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 20:03:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=772#comment-3920</guid>
		<description>Brent...those are very interesting quotes.

Those make me think anything can happen.  There is not just one way (marriage in the temple)..but that God could allow for several circumstances to raise a righteous generation...it just has to be ratified by the one holding priesthood keys, but in speculation, anything could happen...even things that seem to us today as impossible.  With God, all things are possible (that has power in that scripture...but also some confusion, eh?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brent&#8230;those are very interesting quotes.</p>
<p>Those make me think anything can happen.  There is not just one way (marriage in the temple)..but that God could allow for several circumstances to raise a righteous generation&#8230;it just has to be ratified by the one holding priesthood keys, but in speculation, anything could happen&#8230;even things that seem to us today as impossible.  With God, all things are possible (that has power in that scripture&#8230;but also some confusion, eh?)</p>
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		<title>By: Heber13</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/10/25/introduction-to-more-wives-than-one-by-kathryn-daynes/comment-page-1/#comment-3919</link>
		<dc:creator>Heber13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 19:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=772#comment-3919</guid>
		<description>What an interesting story.  It seems to me an example of how church leaders viewed their direction as &quot;inspired from God&quot; and therefore, more important than the free agency of the individuals.  Especially about an issue so important as marriage and family, how it could be done so &quot;cavalierly&quot; is remarkable to me.

Certainly this young man needed to speak up, though that would be hard under the circumstances, but to just go along with things and not speak up puts him at some fault also.  

Not only is marriage and temple marriage so different today, but church leadership is as well.  Today, no bishop would get away with such behavior to marry someone on the spot and then refuse later to back down that it happened.  

Times change...I guess sometimes for the better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What an interesting story.  It seems to me an example of how church leaders viewed their direction as &#8220;inspired from God&#8221; and therefore, more important than the free agency of the individuals.  Especially about an issue so important as marriage and family, how it could be done so &#8220;cavalierly&#8221; is remarkable to me.</p>
<p>Certainly this young man needed to speak up, though that would be hard under the circumstances, but to just go along with things and not speak up puts him at some fault also.  </p>
<p>Not only is marriage and temple marriage so different today, but church leadership is as well.  Today, no bishop would get away with such behavior to marry someone on the spot and then refuse later to back down that it happened.  </p>
<p>Times change&#8230;I guess sometimes for the better.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth R.</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/10/25/introduction-to-more-wives-than-one-by-kathryn-daynes/comment-page-1/#comment-3913</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=772#comment-3913</guid>
		<description>I just found it interesting how marriage was obviously viewed quite differently by all parties in this story, than it is viewed today.

These days, people tend to view it as the end of the world if you don&#039;t end up with that one perfect someone. Everyone here seems to have been seeing things a bit differently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just found it interesting how marriage was obviously viewed quite differently by all parties in this story, than it is viewed today.</p>
<p>These days, people tend to view it as the end of the world if you don&#8217;t end up with that one perfect someone. Everyone here seems to have been seeing things a bit differently.</p>
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		<title>By: Brent Hartman</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/10/25/introduction-to-more-wives-than-one-by-kathryn-daynes/comment-page-1/#comment-3911</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent Hartman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:52:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=772#comment-3911</guid>
		<description>&quot;...we can seal women to men, but not men to men, without a Temple.&quot;
(Brigham Young, J.D. 16:186)

	  &quot;I was asked if certain ordinances could be performed in different
places. I told them, yes, under certain circumstances. `Where,&#039; I was asked.
`Anywhere besides in temples?&#039; Yes. Anywhere besides the Endowment House?&#039;
Yes. `Where, in some other house?&#039; In another house or out of doors, as the
circumstances might be. Why did I say that?... It is the authority of the
Priesthood, not the place that validates and sanctifies the ordinance. I was
asked if people could be sealed outside. Yes! I could have told them I was
sealed outside, and lots of others.... I will say that man was not made for
temples, but temples were made for man.... The temples are places that are
appropriated for a great many ordinances, and among these ordinances that of
marriage; but, then, if we are interrupted by men who do not know about our
principles, that is all right, it will not impede the work of God, or stop the
performance of ordinances. Let them do their work, and we will try and do
ours.&quot; (John Taylor, J.D. 25:355-356)

Some even hold to the opinion that marriage isn&#039;t even necessary for a man and woman to live together.  Here&#039;s what George Q. Cannon, Lorenzo Snow, and Wilford Woodruff had to say on this:

Father [George Q. Cannon] now spoke of the unfortunate condition of the people at present in regard to marriage.... I believe in concubinage, or some plan whereby men and women can live together under sacred ordinances and vows until they can be married.... such a condition would have to be kept secret, until the laws of our government change to permit the holy order of wedlock which God has revealed, ...-- --President Snow. &#039;I have no doubt that concubinage will yet be practiced in this church,...-- --Pres. Woodruff: &#039;If men enter into some practice of this character to raise a righteous posterity, they will be justified in it...&quot;&#039; (Journal of Abraham H. Cannon, April 5, 1894, vol. 18, p. 70)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;we can seal women to men, but not men to men, without a Temple.&#8221;<br />
(Brigham Young, J.D. 16:186)</p>
<p>	  &#8220;I was asked if certain ordinances could be performed in different<br />
places. I told them, yes, under certain circumstances. `Where,&#8217; I was asked.<br />
`Anywhere besides in temples?&#8217; Yes. Anywhere besides the Endowment House?&#8217;<br />
Yes. `Where, in some other house?&#8217; In another house or out of doors, as the<br />
circumstances might be. Why did I say that?&#8230; It is the authority of the<br />
Priesthood, not the place that validates and sanctifies the ordinance. I was<br />
asked if people could be sealed outside. Yes! I could have told them I was<br />
sealed outside, and lots of others&#8230;. I will say that man was not made for<br />
temples, but temples were made for man&#8230;. The temples are places that are<br />
appropriated for a great many ordinances, and among these ordinances that of<br />
marriage; but, then, if we are interrupted by men who do not know about our<br />
principles, that is all right, it will not impede the work of God, or stop the<br />
performance of ordinances. Let them do their work, and we will try and do<br />
ours.&#8221; (John Taylor, J.D. 25:355-356)</p>
<p>Some even hold to the opinion that marriage isn&#8217;t even necessary for a man and woman to live together.  Here&#8217;s what George Q. Cannon, Lorenzo Snow, and Wilford Woodruff had to say on this:</p>
<p>Father [George Q. Cannon] now spoke of the unfortunate condition of the people at present in regard to marriage&#8230;. I believe in concubinage, or some plan whereby men and women can live together under sacred ordinances and vows until they can be married&#8230;. such a condition would have to be kept secret, until the laws of our government change to permit the holy order of wedlock which God has revealed, &#8230;&#8211; &#8211;President Snow. &#8216;I have no doubt that concubinage will yet be practiced in this church,&#8230;&#8211; &#8211;Pres. Woodruff: &#8216;If men enter into some practice of this character to raise a righteous posterity, they will be justified in it&#8230;&#8221;&#8216; (Journal of Abraham H. Cannon, April 5, 1894, vol. 18, p. 70)</p>
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