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	<title>Comments on: Successors of Consecration: Tithing and Fast Offerings</title>
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	<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/13/successors-of-consecration-tithing-and-fast-offerings/</link>
	<description>Stuff they don't talk about in Sunday School</description>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/13/successors-of-consecration-tithing-and-fast-offerings/comment-page-1/#comment-3581</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 04:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=708#comment-3581</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know if I agree that we would pay tithing on a smaller amount.  FireTag has said on several occasions that many CoC members consider it a lifetime achievement to pay a full tithe--so excluding the initial 10% is a pretty big exclusion.  Also, does a rich person like Steve Young or Dale Murphy count his million-dollar mansions as legitimate living expenses the same way I do?  What about a person who spends beyond their means and declares bankruptcy--are they entitled to a tithing refund?  I think not.  So it seems to me that there can be a lot of leeway on defining &quot;basic living expenses.&quot;  A person can buy too big of a house, too big of a car, buy groceries on credit card, and figure they don&#039;t have to pay tithing because they&#039;re in debt so bad.

It is also interesting to me that when the church was in difficulty, Brigham Young would ask for a &quot;special assessment&quot;, and ask a member to give another 10% based on current assets.  So, if it happened today, and I was baptized 10 years ago with a $150,000 house, I&#039;d have to pay $15,000 at baptism.  Then, 10 years later, Brigham needs another special assessment.  By now, real estate prices have gone up, and my house is now worth $200,000, so I owe an additional $20,000 special tithing assessment.  (I haven&#039;t included cars, furniture, etc.)  Ouch.  Even if I&#039;m paying tithing on a smaller amount--subtracting out mortgage, food, taxes, etc, these 2 special assessments are going to really hurt under this 1841 definition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if I agree that we would pay tithing on a smaller amount.  FireTag has said on several occasions that many CoC members consider it a lifetime achievement to pay a full tithe&#8211;so excluding the initial 10% is a pretty big exclusion.  Also, does a rich person like Steve Young or Dale Murphy count his million-dollar mansions as legitimate living expenses the same way I do?  What about a person who spends beyond their means and declares bankruptcy&#8211;are they entitled to a tithing refund?  I think not.  So it seems to me that there can be a lot of leeway on defining &#8220;basic living expenses.&#8221;  A person can buy too big of a house, too big of a car, buy groceries on credit card, and figure they don&#8217;t have to pay tithing because they&#8217;re in debt so bad.</p>
<p>It is also interesting to me that when the church was in difficulty, Brigham Young would ask for a &#8220;special assessment&#8221;, and ask a member to give another 10% based on current assets.  So, if it happened today, and I was baptized 10 years ago with a $150,000 house, I&#8217;d have to pay $15,000 at baptism.  Then, 10 years later, Brigham needs another special assessment.  By now, real estate prices have gone up, and my house is now worth $200,000, so I owe an additional $20,000 special tithing assessment.  (I haven&#8217;t included cars, furniture, etc.)  Ouch.  Even if I&#8217;m paying tithing on a smaller amount&#8211;subtracting out mortgage, food, taxes, etc, these 2 special assessments are going to really hurt under this 1841 definition.</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/13/successors-of-consecration-tithing-and-fast-offerings/comment-page-1/#comment-3566</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=708#comment-3566</guid>
		<description>I too thought that one of the big differences between LDS and RLDS was paying tithing on increase rather than income.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too thought that one of the big differences between LDS and RLDS was paying tithing on increase rather than income.</p>
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		<title>By: Bishop Rick</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/13/successors-of-consecration-tithing-and-fast-offerings/comment-page-1/#comment-3564</link>
		<dc:creator>Bishop Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=708#comment-3564</guid>
		<description>I think your assertion that the change possibly happened with Snow&#039;s tithing promise makes sense. The gap is sufficient to to eliminate the up front 10%. The thing that I find interesting is that after the initial 10%, you are only expected to pay against increase which seemed to have a different definition than it does today. Back then increase was after basic living expenses are subtracted, but today it seems we all start at zero on Jan. 1 and any income is considered increase. The basic living expenses (like taxes, rent, and groceries) are not part of the equation. If we were going off 1841, we would be paying tithing on a much smaller amount than we do today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your assertion that the change possibly happened with Snow&#8217;s tithing promise makes sense. The gap is sufficient to to eliminate the up front 10%. The thing that I find interesting is that after the initial 10%, you are only expected to pay against increase which seemed to have a different definition than it does today. Back then increase was after basic living expenses are subtracted, but today it seems we all start at zero on Jan. 1 and any income is considered increase. The basic living expenses (like taxes, rent, and groceries) are not part of the equation. If we were going off 1841, we would be paying tithing on a much smaller amount than we do today.</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/13/successors-of-consecration-tithing-and-fast-offerings/comment-page-1/#comment-3558</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 03:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=708#comment-3558</guid>
		<description>Bishop Rick, certainly the church does not follow the 1841 definition of tithing anymore, and does not require new converts to turn over 10% of all earthly assets at baptism.  I wish I could answer when that position officially changed.  &lt;b&gt;Great Basin Kingdom&lt;/b&gt; really covers the time period of 1847-1900.  It is evident to me that Brigham Young promoted the 1841 definition, and he died in 1873.  After that, I don&#039;t recall Arrington talking about tithing very much.  The United Orders lasted through the 1890&#039;s, so I suspect the 1841 definition was still in effect.    I haven&#039;t finished &lt;b&gt;Establishing Zion&lt;/b&gt;, and perhaps it is in there.

The polygamy raids happened in the 1880&#039;s and literally brought the church to its knees.  I know some people act like the church wimped out--I guess that&#039;s the case, but I think people who make that claim don&#039;t understand or care to understand how much pressure the church was under.  If someone is strangling you, and you capitulate rather than suffer yourself to be strangled, is that really wimping out?  I digress.

Anyway, in the 1880&#039;s people quit paying their tithing because they didn&#039;t want to turn it over to the government.  The Manifesto came in 1890, statehood in 1898, the drought in 1899, and I suspect that it is about this time that Lorenzo Snow may have been happy just to get 10% from everyone, rather than follow the 1841 definition.

Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff were interested in starting industries.  Brigham invested in sugar, coal and iron mining, silk production, and many other capital-intensive projects, so the tithing receipts were very critical to start these operations.  Some industries succeeded, many did not.  Wilford Woodruff used tithing to help fund a hydroelectric dam project in Ogden--Utah was one of the first areas with electricity in the nation.

When Lorenzo Snow took office, he was pretty dismayed at all these expenditures and the debt of the church.  He pretty much put an end to many of these projects, though things like ZCMI, and investment in hospitals (which later became IHC) still continued.  As such, I think the needs for tithing were not as great as under Brigham Young, and the change to current tithing practices probably happened at this time.

Now I want to state that I&#039;m speculating on this point--I don&#039;t know exactly when the definition of tithing changed from the 1841 definition--I haven&#039;t done much church history in the 1900&#039;s (though my book club is heading there eventually.)  I&#039;ll have to ask one of the other guys--he seems to be pretty well-versed on some of the church economics in the 1900&#039;s.  (Sanford, are you reading this?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bishop Rick, certainly the church does not follow the 1841 definition of tithing anymore, and does not require new converts to turn over 10% of all earthly assets at baptism.  I wish I could answer when that position officially changed.  <b>Great Basin Kingdom</b> really covers the time period of 1847-1900.  It is evident to me that Brigham Young promoted the 1841 definition, and he died in 1873.  After that, I don&#8217;t recall Arrington talking about tithing very much.  The United Orders lasted through the 1890&#8242;s, so I suspect the 1841 definition was still in effect.    I haven&#8217;t finished <b>Establishing Zion</b>, and perhaps it is in there.</p>
<p>The polygamy raids happened in the 1880&#8242;s and literally brought the church to its knees.  I know some people act like the church wimped out&#8211;I guess that&#8217;s the case, but I think people who make that claim don&#8217;t understand or care to understand how much pressure the church was under.  If someone is strangling you, and you capitulate rather than suffer yourself to be strangled, is that really wimping out?  I digress.</p>
<p>Anyway, in the 1880&#8242;s people quit paying their tithing because they didn&#8217;t want to turn it over to the government.  The Manifesto came in 1890, statehood in 1898, the drought in 1899, and I suspect that it is about this time that Lorenzo Snow may have been happy just to get 10% from everyone, rather than follow the 1841 definition.</p>
<p>Brigham Young, John Taylor, and Wilford Woodruff were interested in starting industries.  Brigham invested in sugar, coal and iron mining, silk production, and many other capital-intensive projects, so the tithing receipts were very critical to start these operations.  Some industries succeeded, many did not.  Wilford Woodruff used tithing to help fund a hydroelectric dam project in Ogden&#8211;Utah was one of the first areas with electricity in the nation.</p>
<p>When Lorenzo Snow took office, he was pretty dismayed at all these expenditures and the debt of the church.  He pretty much put an end to many of these projects, though things like ZCMI, and investment in hospitals (which later became IHC) still continued.  As such, I think the needs for tithing were not as great as under Brigham Young, and the change to current tithing practices probably happened at this time.</p>
<p>Now I want to state that I&#8217;m speculating on this point&#8211;I don&#8217;t know exactly when the definition of tithing changed from the 1841 definition&#8211;I haven&#8217;t done much church history in the 1900&#8242;s (though my book club is heading there eventually.)  I&#8217;ll have to ask one of the other guys&#8211;he seems to be pretty well-versed on some of the church economics in the 1900&#8242;s.  (Sanford, are you reading this?)</p>
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		<title>By: Bishop Rick</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/13/successors-of-consecration-tithing-and-fast-offerings/comment-page-1/#comment-3553</link>
		<dc:creator>Bishop Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 23:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=708#comment-3553</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not a fan of scheduled fasting. I feel that it should be undertaken on one&#039;s own schedule. Just me.

MH - Does the Church still follow that line of thinking regarding tithing or has there been an official divergence? It doesn&#039;t quite sound like what we are practicing today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a fan of scheduled fasting. I feel that it should be undertaken on one&#8217;s own schedule. Just me.</p>
<p>MH &#8211; Does the Church still follow that line of thinking regarding tithing or has there been an official divergence? It doesn&#8217;t quite sound like what we are practicing today.</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/13/successors-of-consecration-tithing-and-fast-offerings/comment-page-1/#comment-3546</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 04:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=708#comment-3546</guid>
		<description>We also collected &quot;oblation&quot; offerings for the poor of the church and for others  the first Sunday of each month (our observance of the Lord&#039;s Supper). I think this is similar to what you do, but was not specifically connected to missing a meal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We also collected &#8220;oblation&#8221; offerings for the poor of the church and for others  the first Sunday of each month (our observance of the Lord&#8217;s Supper). I think this is similar to what you do, but was not specifically connected to missing a meal.</p>
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		<title>By: Pedro A. Olavarria</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/13/successors-of-consecration-tithing-and-fast-offerings/comment-page-1/#comment-3543</link>
		<dc:creator>Pedro A. Olavarria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 02:52:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=708#comment-3543</guid>
		<description>I like the idea of fast offering because you are literally taking the food from your plate and giving it to someone else, as opposed to giving ur surplus. Both are good BTW.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea of fast offering because you are literally taking the food from your plate and giving it to someone else, as opposed to giving ur surplus. Both are good BTW.</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/13/successors-of-consecration-tithing-and-fast-offerings/comment-page-1/#comment-3538</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 19:42:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=708#comment-3538</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t get it paid off immediately. As I said, paying off one&#039;s tithing was a lifelong commitment that was often completed in one&#039;s will. But what it did drive home immediately was how much I had been given from God in the first place, and what stewardship really meant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t get it paid off immediately. As I said, paying off one&#8217;s tithing was a lifelong commitment that was often completed in one&#8217;s will. But what it did drive home immediately was how much I had been given from God in the first place, and what stewardship really meant.</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/13/successors-of-consecration-tithing-and-fast-offerings/comment-page-1/#comment-3536</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 05:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=708#comment-3536</guid>
		<description>Wow FireTag, it looks like your $15.00 at age 8 was a real sacrifice, and exemplifies the 1841 law of tithing well.  It seems that through the end of the 1800&#039;s, the LDS church under Brigham Young practiced this same law.  I&#039;m greatly impressed with your contribution at age 8!!!  I did not do anything like that at age 8.  Frankly, with that big of a financial commitment required at baptism, I&#039;m amazed at how quickly the church grew in those days, (as well as in your days)!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow FireTag, it looks like your $15.00 at age 8 was a real sacrifice, and exemplifies the 1841 law of tithing well.  It seems that through the end of the 1800&#8242;s, the LDS church under Brigham Young practiced this same law.  I&#8217;m greatly impressed with your contribution at age 8!!!  I did not do anything like that at age 8.  Frankly, with that big of a financial commitment required at baptism, I&#8217;m amazed at how quickly the church grew in those days, (as well as in your days)!</p>
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		<title>By: FireTag</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/13/successors-of-consecration-tithing-and-fast-offerings/comment-page-1/#comment-3533</link>
		<dc:creator>FireTag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 04:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=708#comment-3533</guid>
		<description>I had not known what we did was the 1841 law until I read the description here, but it clearly was.

The principle was that 1/10th of everything you had in excess of your basic living needs and &quot;necessary wants&quot; was tithable, as was a tenth of your annual income, subject to the same limitation. When baptized at 8, I dutifully filed my initial tithing statement indicating the value of my worldly goods, including toys, at $150 and accepting a tithing due of $15.00. This was quite a sobering sum for one whose allowance was 25 cents per week.

I suspect it was really sobering to adult converts!

The saving grace, of course, was that we taught tithing within a scheme that went something like:

...become an accounting steward -- acknowledge your responsibility to God.

...become a self-sustaining steward -- become someone who can support yourself and your family by yourself

...become an increase producing steward -- someone who produces excess of ones own needs to give to others

...become an inherentance producing steward -- become someone who can maintain your own and family&#039;s needs and just wants for the rest of your life

...become a surplus producing steward who can gather excess beyond their needs to the &quot;storehouse&quot;.

It was a simpler concept for a simpler and less economically interdependent time.

I&#039;m sure paying a lot more than 10% today, using the government rather than the church as the agent to help the poor.

In general, we&#039;ve moved toward the concept of &quot;generosity&quot; in our teaching, with tithing supposedly not limited to church giving, but to any org we feel as a matter oc conscience is doing Christ&#039;s work, but we do want the world church to be first among equals in practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had not known what we did was the 1841 law until I read the description here, but it clearly was.</p>
<p>The principle was that 1/10th of everything you had in excess of your basic living needs and &#8220;necessary wants&#8221; was tithable, as was a tenth of your annual income, subject to the same limitation. When baptized at 8, I dutifully filed my initial tithing statement indicating the value of my worldly goods, including toys, at $150 and accepting a tithing due of $15.00. This was quite a sobering sum for one whose allowance was 25 cents per week.</p>
<p>I suspect it was really sobering to adult converts!</p>
<p>The saving grace, of course, was that we taught tithing within a scheme that went something like:</p>
<p>&#8230;become an accounting steward &#8212; acknowledge your responsibility to God.</p>
<p>&#8230;become a self-sustaining steward &#8212; become someone who can support yourself and your family by yourself</p>
<p>&#8230;become an increase producing steward &#8212; someone who produces excess of ones own needs to give to others</p>
<p>&#8230;become an inherentance producing steward &#8212; become someone who can maintain your own and family&#8217;s needs and just wants for the rest of your life</p>
<p>&#8230;become a surplus producing steward who can gather excess beyond their needs to the &#8220;storehouse&#8221;.</p>
<p>It was a simpler concept for a simpler and less economically interdependent time.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure paying a lot more than 10% today, using the government rather than the church as the agent to help the poor.</p>
<p>In general, we&#8217;ve moved toward the concept of &#8220;generosity&#8221; in our teaching, with tithing supposedly not limited to church giving, but to any org we feel as a matter oc conscience is doing Christ&#8217;s work, but we do want the world church to be first among equals in practice.</p>
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