Thanks for posting this. While you’re welcome to email me at mormon heretic at gmail dot com, I think this is a perfect place for the link. I listened to only the first 5 minutes, but judging from that, I may have to write my own transcript of his talk. It sounds very interesting, and I definitely want to take time to listen to the whole thing. It could be a future post! Thanks. (And I don’t mind resurrecting old topics either, especially if you have something valuable to add such as this link.)

On the subject of consecration (again, one of my favorites), I offer a link to a talk from the 2008 Sperry Symposium. Not sure if you’ve seen this before. It could have just as well been entitled “The Law of Consecration for the 21st Century” and takes the same approach as I have, although more thoroughly and eloquently. Thought you might enjoy.

http://www.byub.org/talks/Talk.aspx?id=3416

Therein lies the difficulty in looking around and surmising that no one is living it today. This is further complicated by the fact that even in a Zionist / United Order society, all members wouldn’t have the same stuff or even live at the same level of “luxury” (for lack of a better term). Individual adaptation applies based on varying needs, wants, personal taste, etc. That last part has a good portion of my opinion in it, but it is based on all that I have read on the subject. Even in a United Order situation, I wouldn’t care that my neighbor had a boat because I’m not really that into them anyway…but I’m sure I’d be able to borrow it as often as I wanted. : )

…Again, the Law of Consecration goes much deeper than the temporal.

I get your point that we don’t need a formal program to live the law of consecration, but in reality, I think without a formal program, nobody would do it. Even Mother Teresa took a vow of poverty as part of a Catholic Order of Nuns, which is a formal program. Every once in a while you will hear about someone who gives out $100 bills in a secret Santa way–I suppose this could be considered a form of consecration, but this is a rare exception, and only happens to a person late in life–it’s rarely a lifelong way of life to live this way.

FireTag, I would like to get into King Benjamin’s frame of mind about giving–that would be pretty cool. (And I would have picked Mario Lemieux or Sidney Crosby over Alex Ovechkin–but you’re probably picking a local hockey star over a national one…)

I want to get to the point where I always feel, “How much do I get to give?” and mean it with the kind of joy Alex Ovechkin would show if you asked him how many goals he got to score. (hockey note to MH and FD!)

The semantics thing occurred to me as well. My focus has been the “Law” of Consecration and what I can do today to live it even though we are not “commanded” to practice the United Order or any other temporal form of “consecration” requiring goods in common, cooperatives, etc. As I perceive the whisperings of the Spirit to me, I have all that is necessary around me to give all that I have and am (possessions, time, talents, etc.) to the building up of the Kingdom and the establishment of Zion. The greatest of those would be my will and when/if I completely accomplish that I believe I will have successfully complied with that covenant.

I, too, am impressed with those who were called to practice it collectively as a society, mostly by their willingness to toss aside all that they had previously been taught about economics and accept a higher paradigm, which required them to “walk the talk” in a very real way. However, our circumstances today may not be any less real. We both know that mere outward observance of a law does not imply true faith in it or compliance where it counts (in our hearts, who we are). They failed to bring again Zion and the reason that is most tossed around is because they could not live up to the Law in their hearts. There were jealousies, strifes, wickedness, etc.

Now, if we allow the possibility that formal programs are not required to live the Law of Consecration, then I think we step onto dangerous ground when we try to compare their effort to that of many around us today. By definition, as long as I give my all and only keep what is necessary, I am doing all that is required of me at this time to comply with my covenant. For a practical example of how that could be accomplished today (not completely, but significantly), I would reference Elder Hales’ talk in April Conference. Just one example of one facet. And again, although I am falling way short of that personally, it is probable that as I strive to live that standard and the Law grows within my heart, I will be in a position to successfully live within the formal programs if and when I am ever called to do so. And if there are enough others like me, Zion will be established. I don’t fall into the camp of pointing the finger of judgement at them for their failure because, as you say, it implies we think we are more righteous; but I also don’t subscribe to the “pioneer worship” that can be found in the Church. I believe I live amongst some who could successfully pull of the United Order and Zion and there were certainly some among the early saints that could have as well. I don’t think the trials we face today are any less difficult. If we were to look at the hearts of both groups, there might not be as much difference as some would expect.

This happens to be one of my favorite topics and I have a lot more to say on it, but I have said enough for now. Don’t be surprised if you see more from me in the future on this and other similar blogs (have been a lurker at MM from time to time). Thank you for making me feel welcome to do so.

It seems to me we disagree based on semantics. You seem to be arguing that you are living the Law of Consecration in theory (albeit you’re falling far short), while I am saying that in practice, nobody lives the law of Consecration in this day. I am much more impressed with the practical consecrationists of Brigham Young’s day, than theoretical ones of our day. Perhaps you live the Law of Consecration better than I do, but in practice I think your effort is pitiful compared to these early saints. (My effort is so small to be unmeasurable.)

I STRIVE to live the law of consecration outside a formal group program, but I fall miserably short of that daily. As I said, it is a lofty goal, but one I fervently believe in. You’re right, I don’t live like my ancestors or the people in your post, but I NEVER compared my consecration with theirs. You got there on your own. My post was merely my opinion and description of of the ideal. Like I said, I fall short of it.

Overall, good discussion and I’m glad I came across your blog. Certainly not something I would encounter in Gospel Doctrine. Meat is what you find here, and sometimes a little “gamey” at that. : )