Comments on: Interview with the Community of Christ http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/06/09/interview-with-the-community-of-christ/ Stuff they don't talk about in Sunday School Wed, 08 Feb 2012 14:23:56 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.3 By: FireTag http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/06/09/interview-with-the-community-of-christ/comment-page-3/#comment-13078 FireTag Wed, 23 Nov 2011 23:32:26 +0000 http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=575#comment-13078 RLDSer: I wish it was that simple, because I was taught the same thing when I was growing up. But even the CofChrist Presidency no longer believes that JS was NOT involved. They will only go so far as saying there is some evidence that JS recognized he had been deceived and was trying to reverse what had happened before he was killed. You can check out the CofChrist website and go to the First Presidency page and see statements to that effect since the 2010 World Conference. In general, there are substantial differences in mindset between those comfortable in the CofChrist today, and those who identify more closely with the RLDS tradition. And BY did not bring the original poison into the Restoration tree. RLDSer:

I wish it was that simple, because I was taught the same thing when I was growing up. But even the CofChrist Presidency no longer believes that JS was NOT involved. They will only go so far as saying there is some evidence that JS recognized he had been deceived and was trying to reverse what had happened before he was killed. You can check out the CofChrist website and go to the First Presidency page and see statements to that effect since the 2010 World Conference.

In general, there are substantial differences in mindset between those comfortable in the CofChrist today, and those who identify more closely with the RLDS tradition. And BY did not bring the original poison into the Restoration tree.

]]> By: RLDSer http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/06/09/interview-with-the-community-of-christ/comment-page-3/#comment-13070 RLDSer Tue, 22 Nov 2011 15:59:03 +0000 http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=575#comment-13070 I am a member of the Cof C (RLDS) and attend the original RLDS church in Plano, IL. I do not believe that Joseph Jr. ever participated in polygamy himself nor can I believe that he encouraged the idea since it is evident in the original D & C that he have revelations against such practice. That and the fact that if he had, I believe Emma herself would have been part of the mob that offed him in Carthage. :) Joseph III spent a great deal of his life following up on every claim of anyone of such a marriage to his father and found no evidence to substantiate any. I believe that the early church was growing so fast that many differing ideas of different groups were allowed to join, some who were involved in polygamy, to the original church's (which the RLDS was declared in court) detriment. Brigham Young was obviously in favor of the practice wholeheartedly. Since Joseph III was ordained by his father to be the next Predident of the church, Brigham Young and the current LDS are the offshoot not the other way around. Brigham Young was the first president and founder of the current LDS church, NOT Joseph Jr. as the practices he instituted were NOT sanctioned by Joseph Jr. as well as original doctrine and books were changed once Brigham Young led followers out west. Personally, and this is no reflection on the current LDS people, from what I have read and learned of Brigham Young he was an evil, ego-driven man who even participated in a massacre of innocent people. I believe the Bible says "by their fruits ye shall know them". To me, murder sanctioned by a so-called leader of Christians is a fruit that is rotten to the core. That, plus the fact that all the young Mormon missionaries I have met, once told about our church, are not allowed by their Bishop to return, only goes to show the control under which the current LDS reside and sheeplike qualities of the current Mormon population. We raise our children to be free thinkers and researchers of ALL information. I have heard it said in our congregations many times that ALL good spiritual books are scriptural. Again, I believe that by their fruits you will know them so if you have no free thought how are you allowed to discern? I am a member of the Cof C (RLDS) and attend the original RLDS church in Plano, IL. I do not believe that Joseph Jr. ever participated in polygamy himself nor can I believe that he encouraged the idea since it is evident in the original D & C that he have revelations against such practice. That and the fact that if he had, I believe Emma herself would have been part of the mob that offed him in Carthage. :) Joseph III spent a great deal of his life following up on every claim of anyone of such a marriage to his father and found no evidence to substantiate any. I believe that the early church was growing so fast that many differing ideas of different groups were allowed to join, some who were involved in polygamy, to the original church’s (which the RLDS was declared in court) detriment. Brigham Young was obviously in favor of the practice wholeheartedly. Since Joseph III was ordained by his father to be the next Predident of the church, Brigham Young and the current LDS are the offshoot not the other way around. Brigham Young was the first president and founder of the current LDS church, NOT Joseph Jr. as the practices he instituted were NOT sanctioned by Joseph Jr. as well as original doctrine and books were changed once Brigham Young led followers out west. Personally, and this is no reflection on the current LDS people, from what I have read and learned of Brigham Young he was an evil, ego-driven man who even participated in a massacre of innocent people. I believe the Bible says “by their fruits ye shall know them”. To me, murder sanctioned by a so-called leader of Christians is a fruit that is rotten to the core. That, plus the fact that all the young Mormon missionaries I have met, once told about our church, are not allowed by their Bishop to return, only goes to show the control under which the current LDS reside and sheeplike qualities of the current Mormon population. We raise our children to be free thinkers and researchers of ALL information. I have heard it said in our congregations many times that ALL good spiritual books are scriptural. Again, I believe that by their fruits you will know them so if you have no free thought how are you allowed to discern?

]]> By: Margie Miller http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/06/09/interview-with-the-community-of-christ/comment-page-2/#comment-9380 Margie Miller Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:57:16 +0000 http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=575#comment-9380 It is true that Community of Christ emphasizes building community and peace and justice. We seldom hear any mention of atonement except in the context of "at one with". There is very little concern with an afterlife. Jesus message, according to Community of Christ was one of building God's Empire on earth. We are most concerned about this life...it's quality, service to others and building community, etc. It is true that Community of Christ emphasizes building community and peace and justice. We seldom hear any mention of atonement except in the context of “at one with”. There is very little concern with an afterlife. Jesus message, according to Community of Christ was one of building God’s Empire on earth. We are most concerned about this life…it’s quality, service to others and building community, etc.

]]> By: Franklin J Toney http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/06/09/interview-with-the-community-of-christ/comment-page-2/#comment-7934 Franklin J Toney Sat, 09 Oct 2010 00:35:47 +0000 http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=575#comment-7934 <a href="#comment-5441" rel="nofollow">@mark gibson </a> The hym "we thank thee Oh God for a propht" was writen for the deacation of the kertland tempel. Is that lds? dose it mater? If the C oc C sing it shouldn't mater at all if it is there hymm book. The Hymm is part of the history of the Resroration and if you abject then sing somthing eles. F J Toney: by the way the Kertland Tempel belongs to and is matained by The Comunity of Christ. @mark gibson
The hym “we thank thee Oh God
for a propht” was writen for the deacation of the kertland tempel. Is that lds? dose it mater? If the C oc C sing it shouldn’t mater at all if it is there hymm book. The Hymm is part of the history of the Resroration and if you abject then sing somthing eles. F J Toney: by the way the Kertland Tempel belongs to and is matained by The Comunity of Christ.

]]> By: julius omwoyo http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/06/09/interview-with-the-community-of-christ/comment-page-2/#comment-7218 julius omwoyo Tue, 27 Jul 2010 12:58:48 +0000 http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=575#comment-7218 Dear brother , Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ who left heavenly throne and came down here to die for us .We honour and glorify Him. Let me take this chance to thank you and your church .I request to work with you in Christ .Please pray for me and my family ,church fellow ,pastors and our poor people and young orphans who are among us . Thank you and may God bless you and the saints. Yours Faithfully , Pastor Julius Nyabuto Dear brother ,
Greetings in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ who left heavenly throne and came down here to die for us .We honour and glorify Him. Let me take this chance to thank you and your church .I request to work with you in Christ .Please pray for me and my family ,church fellow ,pastors and our poor people and young orphans who are among us .
Thank you and may God bless you and the saints.
Yours Faithfully ,

Pastor Julius Nyabuto

]]> By: Mormon Heretic » Pres Veazey and John Hamer: Highlights of MHA Day 1 http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/06/09/interview-with-the-community-of-christ/comment-page-2/#comment-6532 Mormon Heretic » Pres Veazey and John Hamer: Highlights of MHA Day 1 Fri, 28 May 2010 17:16:53 +0000 http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=575#comment-6532 [...] spoke with John after his presentation, and thanked him for participating on my blog here with the Interview with the Community of Christ.  He said that he blogs over at By Common Consent, and said he has had a request to comment on [...] [...] spoke with John after his presentation, and thanked him for participating on my blog here with the Interview with the Community of Christ.  He said that he blogs over at By Common Consent, and said he has had a request to comment on [...]

]]> By: FireTag http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/06/09/interview-with-the-community-of-christ/comment-page-2/#comment-5608 FireTag Thu, 22 Apr 2010 20:24:53 +0000 http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=575#comment-5608 Butch: As you describe it, the Christus Victor model certainly seems to describe the theological statement in the christology link I provided above. How that victory comes about is NOT described in that model; the healing medicine is a description of the very real, human-behavior-modifying presence of Jesus in the current events of the world which we emphasize (in practice) as our mechanism. I should distinguish here between my personal theology and CofChrist theology. On this subject I'm not the best one to ask. My training as a physicist leads me to picture the relationship between the human body and the human spirit very differently than either Mormon or non-Mormon Christians picture it. Rather than picturing one body and one spirit for each of us, I think my spirit is a collective entity arising from interaction among a literally infinite number of copies and variations of me -- the way my mind arises from the interactions of huge numbers of neurons within my body. Conventional theology is hard to translate into such terms, though I think such translation is called for by what science is telling us. Butch:

As you describe it, the Christus Victor model certainly seems to describe the theological statement in the christology link I provided above. How that victory comes about is NOT described in that model; the healing medicine is a description of the very real, human-behavior-modifying presence of Jesus in the current events of the world which we emphasize (in practice) as our mechanism.

I should distinguish here between my personal theology and CofChrist theology. On this subject I’m not the best one to ask. My training as a physicist leads me to picture the relationship between the human body and the human spirit very differently than either Mormon or non-Mormon Christians picture it. Rather than picturing one body and one spirit for each of us, I think my spirit is a collective entity arising from interaction among a literally infinite number of copies and variations of me — the way my mind arises from the interactions of huge numbers of neurons within my body.

Conventional theology is hard to translate into such terms, though I think such translation is called for by what science is telling us.

]]> By: Butch Bowman http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/06/09/interview-with-the-community-of-christ/comment-page-2/#comment-5607 Butch Bowman Thu, 22 Apr 2010 16:51:25 +0000 http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=575#comment-5607 Although it is commonly taught in the LDS church by both the members and "the Brethren", I feel the debtor model of the atonement is very limited. You can only take it so far before you start to encounter problems. The only thing it really does well is introduce the idea of a conflict between justice and mercy. An alternative model that I personally have found to be helpful is the Christus Victor model. My understanding is that this model frames Jesus' suffering, death, and resurrection as an ultimate struggle against and victory over sin, death, and all things evil. FireTag, could you elaborate on "unimaginably healing medicine"? I'm very interested in alternative models of the atonement. Also, it occurs to me that Community of Christ doctrine might not agree about the conflict or tension between God's justice and mercy. In LDS theology, God is kind of in a bind, because his perfect justice causes him to not be able to simply excuse sin, while his perfect mercy is manifest in his desire to save his children. What is the Community of Christ take on this? And if you've got time, how about your ideas on Satan? Although it is commonly taught in the LDS church by both the members and “the Brethren”, I feel the debtor model of the atonement is very limited. You can only take it so far before you start to encounter problems. The only thing it really does well is introduce the idea of a conflict between justice and mercy.

An alternative model that I personally have found to be helpful is the Christus Victor model. My understanding is that this model frames Jesus’ suffering, death, and resurrection as an ultimate struggle against and victory over sin, death, and all things evil.

FireTag, could you elaborate on “unimaginably healing medicine”? I’m very interested in alternative models of the atonement. Also, it occurs to me that Community of Christ doctrine might not agree about the conflict or tension between God’s justice and mercy. In LDS theology, God is kind of in a bind, because his perfect justice causes him to not be able to simply excuse sin, while his perfect mercy is manifest in his desire to save his children. What is the Community of Christ take on this? And if you’ve got time, how about your ideas on Satan?

]]> By: FireTag http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/06/09/interview-with-the-community-of-christ/comment-page-2/#comment-5606 FireTag Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:41:59 +0000 http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=575#comment-5606 MH: Another aspect of this is that the CofChrist views the Atonement as unimaginally healing medicine rather than in the sense of someone has to pay the fine. Our view of all of the sacraments comes from this worldview as well, which, I guess, also leads to a deemphasis on sealings, etc. as salvation requirements. MH:

Another aspect of this is that the CofChrist views the Atonement as unimaginally healing medicine rather than in the sense of someone has to pay the fine. Our view of all of the sacraments comes from this worldview as well, which, I guess, also leads to a deemphasis on sealings, etc. as salvation requirements.

]]> By: Butch Bowman http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/06/09/interview-with-the-community-of-christ/comment-page-2/#comment-5605 Butch Bowman Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:36:22 +0000 http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=575#comment-5605 I'd like to clarify something I wrote. A doctrine of atonement through a vicarious savior is not essential for a doctrine of salvation in the afterlife. Many non-christian religions and even some christian religions teach that expiation through a divine savior is not needed. Of course, the Book of Mormon condemns this doctrine strongly. Amasa Lyman, an LDS apostle, was excommunicated for teaching that the atonement was not part of the plan of salvation. However, going back to why a deemphasis on the afterlife would lead to a deemphasis on the atonement, the two are very strongly linked in christian tradition, and this explains why one can reasonably explain, as FireTag does, a deemphasis on the doctrine of atonement stemming from a deemphasis on teaching about the afterlife. I’d like to clarify something I wrote. A doctrine of atonement through a vicarious savior is not essential for a doctrine of salvation in the afterlife. Many non-christian religions and even some christian religions teach that expiation through a divine savior is not needed. Of course, the Book of Mormon condemns this doctrine strongly. Amasa Lyman, an LDS apostle, was excommunicated for teaching that the atonement was not part of the plan of salvation. However, going back to why a deemphasis on the afterlife would lead to a deemphasis on the atonement, the two are very strongly linked in christian tradition, and this explains why one can reasonably explain, as FireTag does, a deemphasis on the doctrine of atonement stemming from a deemphasis on teaching about the afterlife.

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