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	<title>Comments on: The Nauvoo Expositor &#8211; A Different Perspective</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/10/the-nauvoo-expositor-a-different-perspective/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/10/the-nauvoo-expositor-a-different-perspective/</link>
	<description>Stuff they don't talk about in Sunday School</description>
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		<title>By: Worrell</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/10/the-nauvoo-expositor-a-different-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-13287</link>
		<dc:creator>Worrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2011 17:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=512#comment-13287</guid>
		<description>Where is this &quot;Democracy&quot; so many of you are writing about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where is this &#8220;Democracy&#8221; so many of you are writing about?</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/10/the-nauvoo-expositor-a-different-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-13275</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2011 02:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=512#comment-13275</guid>
		<description>I need to correct something here.  The letter that Quinn references and I quoted above is based on a Hoffman forgery, so those details are inaccurate.  Specifically when I referenced &lt;blockquote&gt;The morning of 27 June, Smith sent an order (in his own handwriting) to Major-General Jonathan Dunham to lead the Nauvoo Legion in a military attack on Carthage “immediately” to free the prisoners.  Dunham realized that such an assault by the Nauvoo Legion would result in two blood baths–one in Carthage and another when anti-Mormons (and probably the Illinois militia) retaliated by laying seige to Nauvoo for insurrection.  To avoid civil war and destruction of Nauvoo’s population, Dunham refused to obey the order and did not notify Smith of his decision.  One of his lieutenants, a former Danite, later complained that Dunham “did not let a single mortal know that he had received such orders.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I need to correct something here.  The letter that Quinn references and I quoted above is based on a Hoffman forgery, so those details are inaccurate.  Specifically when I referenced<br />
<blockquote>The morning of 27 June, Smith sent an order (in his own handwriting) to Major-General Jonathan Dunham to lead the Nauvoo Legion in a military attack on Carthage “immediately” to free the prisoners.  Dunham realized that such an assault by the Nauvoo Legion would result in two blood baths–one in Carthage and another when anti-Mormons (and probably the Illinois militia) retaliated by laying seige to Nauvoo for insurrection.  To avoid civil war and destruction of Nauvoo’s population, Dunham refused to obey the order and did not notify Smith of his decision.  One of his lieutenants, a former Danite, later complained that Dunham “did not let a single mortal know that he had received such orders.”</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Nauvoo City Council Minutes &#124; Wheat and Tares</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/10/the-nauvoo-expositor-a-different-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-13257</link>
		<dc:creator>Nauvoo City Council Minutes &#124; Wheat and Tares</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=512#comment-13257</guid>
		<description>[...] of riot.  Once there, the charge was upgraded to treason.  I&#8217;ve talked previously about Michael Quinn downplaying polygamy in relation to the Expositor, as well as Dallin Oaks&#8217; book discussing the trial of Joseph&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of riot.  Once there, the charge was upgraded to treason.  I&#8217;ve talked previously about Michael Quinn downplaying polygamy in relation to the Expositor, as well as Dallin Oaks&#8217; book discussing the trial of Joseph&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic &#187; Nauvoo City Council Minutes</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/10/the-nauvoo-expositor-a-different-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-13255</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic &#187; Nauvoo City Council Minutes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Dec 2011 04:56:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=512#comment-13255</guid>
		<description>[...] of riot.  Once there, the charge was upgraded to treason.  I&#8217;ve talked previously about Michael Quinn downplaying polygamy in relation to the Expositor, as well as Dallin Oaks&#8217; book discussing the trial of Joseph&#8217;s [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of riot.  Once there, the charge was upgraded to treason.  I&#8217;ve talked previously about Michael Quinn downplaying polygamy in relation to the Expositor, as well as Dallin Oaks&#8217; book discussing the trial of Joseph&#8217;s [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic &#187; Highlights of Day 2 at MHA: Trouble in Zion, Bushman, Gordon, and Bringhurst and the Awards</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/10/the-nauvoo-expositor-a-different-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-6549</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic &#187; Highlights of Day 2 at MHA: Trouble in Zion, Bushman, Gordon, and Bringhurst and the Awards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 May 2010 13:42:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=512#comment-6549</guid>
		<description>[...] The morning plenary session was from Laurel Thatcher Ulrich.  She is a 5th generation Mormon that teaches at Harvard.  She gave an interesting presentation on the Wilford Woodruff diaries.  The afternoon session included a great session about polygamy.  Newell Bringhurst was great!  Following the session, I asked him if he agreed with Michael Quinn&#8217;s assertion that theocracy was a bigger problem than polygamy from the Nauvoo Expositor.  He disagreed with Quinn.  He felt that polygamy was an explosive topic.  He agreed that theocracy was a potential problem, but believed the polygamy was the bigger problem.  (I blogged about this previously&#8211;The Nauvoo Expositor, a Different Perspective.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The morning plenary session was from Laurel Thatcher Ulrich.  She is a 5th generation Mormon that teaches at Harvard.  She gave an interesting presentation on the Wilford Woodruff diaries.  The afternoon session included a great session about polygamy.  Newell Bringhurst was great!  Following the session, I asked him if he agreed with Michael Quinn&#8217;s assertion that theocracy was a bigger problem than polygamy from the Nauvoo Expositor.  He disagreed with Quinn.  He felt that polygamy was an explosive topic.  He agreed that theocracy was a potential problem, but believed the polygamy was the bigger problem.  (I blogged about this previously&#8211;The Nauvoo Expositor, a Different Perspective.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/10/the-nauvoo-expositor-a-different-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-4896</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 07:39:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=512#comment-4896</guid>
		<description>Scott, thanks for that link.  I know Quinn seems to have taken some liberty with footnotes, and this looks to be another example.  The link to the Hoffman forgery should put any of these claims to bed as illegitimate.  After reading that, I don&#039;t believe there is any evidence supporting the idea that Joseph wrote a letter asking to be busted out of jail.

I&#039;m not sure I fully understand your question regarding theocracy.  I must say that it was a new idea to me when I read this book, but I&#039;ve read an interview by Richard Bushman and &lt;i&gt;Great Basin Kingdom&lt;/i&gt; by former church historian Leonard Arrington, and both indicate that Brigham Young was successful in establishing a theocracy in Utah.  I&#039;m reading a new book by Sarah Baringer Gordon, (a non-member) who also supports this idea.  I have to say I was a bit surprised to learn that Bishop Courts in the late 1800&#039;s didn&#039;t just excommunicate/disfellowship members, they settled land disputes with Mormons and non-Mormons (which is why the non-Mormons hated these Bishop&#039;s courts).  Joseph was certainly trying to establish a theocracy, and it looks like Brigham Young was successful.

While the federal anti-polygamy raids get the lion&#039;s share of coverage, it is significant to notice that the federal government took control of the courts, governorship, and tried to outlaw the United Orders because they are inherently monopolistic (and Mormons tried successfully to exclude non-Mormons and dissidents from the economy.)  There is a lot more to the story of federal intervention than simply polygamy.

Gordon also makes it extremely clear that the Republicans led the anti-poligamy charge against the Mormons.  They compared polygamy to slavery.  So, the Southern Democrats in defending slavery also defended the Mormon right to polygamy (even though Southern Democrats weren&#039;t fond of polygamy either.)  So, no good Mormon would have every voted Republican from about 1856-1900.  I must say the federal government was very draconian in trying to stamp out theocracy and polygamy in Utah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, thanks for that link.  I know Quinn seems to have taken some liberty with footnotes, and this looks to be another example.  The link to the Hoffman forgery should put any of these claims to bed as illegitimate.  After reading that, I don&#8217;t believe there is any evidence supporting the idea that Joseph wrote a letter asking to be busted out of jail.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure I fully understand your question regarding theocracy.  I must say that it was a new idea to me when I read this book, but I&#8217;ve read an interview by Richard Bushman and <i>Great Basin Kingdom</i> by former church historian Leonard Arrington, and both indicate that Brigham Young was successful in establishing a theocracy in Utah.  I&#8217;m reading a new book by Sarah Baringer Gordon, (a non-member) who also supports this idea.  I have to say I was a bit surprised to learn that Bishop Courts in the late 1800&#8242;s didn&#8217;t just excommunicate/disfellowship members, they settled land disputes with Mormons and non-Mormons (which is why the non-Mormons hated these Bishop&#8217;s courts).  Joseph was certainly trying to establish a theocracy, and it looks like Brigham Young was successful.</p>
<p>While the federal anti-polygamy raids get the lion&#8217;s share of coverage, it is significant to notice that the federal government took control of the courts, governorship, and tried to outlaw the United Orders because they are inherently monopolistic (and Mormons tried successfully to exclude non-Mormons and dissidents from the economy.)  There is a lot more to the story of federal intervention than simply polygamy.</p>
<p>Gordon also makes it extremely clear that the Republicans led the anti-poligamy charge against the Mormons.  They compared polygamy to slavery.  So, the Southern Democrats in defending slavery also defended the Mormon right to polygamy (even though Southern Democrats weren&#8217;t fond of polygamy either.)  So, no good Mormon would have every voted Republican from about 1856-1900.  I must say the federal government was very draconian in trying to stamp out theocracy and polygamy in Utah.</p>
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		<title>By: scott</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/10/the-nauvoo-expositor-a-different-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-4887</link>
		<dc:creator>scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Dec 2009 06:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=512#comment-4887</guid>
		<description>Very interesting site here! Nice to see such civil discussion and debate!

Quinn&#039;s claims about the letter to Dunham alarmed me. I&#039;ve read Bushman&#039;s book and a few others, but neverheard anything about the order.

I was curious about Quinn&#039;s source for the claim, and found this explanation on fairlds which seems to place the claim comfortably in the area of fishy historical claim on Quinn&#039;s part:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_as_a_martyr/Nauvoo_Legion_to_rescue_Joseph

I also remembered the council of 50 references in Bushman&#039;s book, but it seemed pretty scarce. How much do we really know about the whole theocracy idea, and how much is guessing? Is there room for believing that it was just meant to be like what the church is today? A religious gov&#039;t within the republic of the united states?

I think Mormons tend to vote republican because of hot button issues like abortion and welfare / socialism etc... how they get past the coorperatism and war mongering of the right is beyond me. I&#039;m surprised more mormons don&#039;t vote for 3rd parties.

On unity vs democracy, I think it has to be achieved from the bottom up, not the top down. To paraphrase a quote that rang true to me: &quot;Peace and unity are easy, but peace and unity WITH freedom, that&#039;s the real challenge.&quot; When the leaders don&#039;t have to put down rebelion, because no one wants to rebel, because we&#039;ve finally figured out how to apply the freedom and compassion of the gospel to society... maybe then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting site here! Nice to see such civil discussion and debate!</p>
<p>Quinn&#8217;s claims about the letter to Dunham alarmed me. I&#8217;ve read Bushman&#8217;s book and a few others, but neverheard anything about the order.</p>
<p>I was curious about Quinn&#8217;s source for the claim, and found this explanation on fairlds which seems to place the claim comfortably in the area of fishy historical claim on Quinn&#8217;s part:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_as_a_martyr/Nauvoo_Legion_to_rescue_Joseph" rel="nofollow">http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_as_a_martyr/Nauvoo_Legion_to_rescue_Joseph</a></p>
<p>I also remembered the council of 50 references in Bushman&#8217;s book, but it seemed pretty scarce. How much do we really know about the whole theocracy idea, and how much is guessing? Is there room for believing that it was just meant to be like what the church is today? A religious gov&#8217;t within the republic of the united states?</p>
<p>I think Mormons tend to vote republican because of hot button issues like abortion and welfare / socialism etc&#8230; how they get past the coorperatism and war mongering of the right is beyond me. I&#8217;m surprised more mormons don&#8217;t vote for 3rd parties.</p>
<p>On unity vs democracy, I think it has to be achieved from the bottom up, not the top down. To paraphrase a quote that rang true to me: &#8220;Peace and unity are easy, but peace and unity WITH freedom, that&#8217;s the real challenge.&#8221; When the leaders don&#8217;t have to put down rebelion, because no one wants to rebel, because we&#8217;ve finally figured out how to apply the freedom and compassion of the gospel to society&#8230; maybe then?</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic &#187; The Anti-Polygamy Raids</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/10/the-nauvoo-expositor-a-different-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-3594</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic &#187; The Anti-Polygamy Raids</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 07:47:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=512#comment-3594</guid>
		<description>[...] until 1852, and the actual revelation was not added to the D&amp;C until 1876.  I talked about the Nauvoo Expositor, which published allegations of Joseph&#8217;s polygamy.  Joseph directed the press be destroyed, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] until 1852, and the actual revelation was not added to the D&amp;C until 1876.  I talked about the Nauvoo Expositor, which published allegations of Joseph&#8217;s polygamy.  Joseph directed the press be destroyed, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Margie Miller</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/10/the-nauvoo-expositor-a-different-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-2152</link>
		<dc:creator>Margie Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 19:42:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=512#comment-2152</guid>
		<description>Fascinating! I always enjoy reading Quinn&#039;s work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating! I always enjoy reading Quinn&#8217;s work!</p>
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		<title>By: TheFaithfulDissident</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/05/10/the-nauvoo-expositor-a-different-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-2149</link>
		<dc:creator>TheFaithfulDissident</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 14:44:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=512#comment-2149</guid>
		<description>Yes, and it&#039;s not always easy to do.  I try to remember what my dad always says:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;The difference between a Republican and a Democrat?&quot;  Practically nothing.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I got my open mind from my mother and my realist cynicism from my father.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, and it&#8217;s not always easy to do.  I try to remember what my dad always says:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;The difference between a Republican and a Democrat?&#8221;  Practically nothing.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I got my open mind from my mother and my realist cynicism from my father.  <img src='http://www.mormonheretic.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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