I’d like to get into preexistence issues, too. But suggesting a different way to interpret the relationship between physical time and “spiritual metatime” makes the posts on parallel universes and duality in my blog positively simple by comparison. More urgent concerns keep pushing that back, since I practically have to create special graphics to have any hope of being clear.

If you think about it, our theology says priesthood has been disconnected from a church for most of human history. The priesthood establishes the church institutions, not, as most protestant denominations assert, that the institutions determine who has priesthood. Priesthood established the church in the Book of Mormon multiple times. The church could not take away from Joseph or Oliver anything God had given them, and the church couldn’t bestow anything God didn’t want them to have.

Honestly, it does not matter to me which date one chooses–Richard’s reasoning is as sound as anyone’s from that perspective. Richard, are you referring specifically to Alma 13:3?

Richard, I checked out your website and downloaded a few pdf files. Some of the links on the PDF files are broken. I found the fascinating. Would you be open to a sort of interview like I did with FireTag and John Hamer about the Community of Christ?

FireTag, I really wish you would get into pre-existence issues. I always enjoy your perspective on things. I’m not sure what you mean when you said, “If the people had said “no”, the elders would still have been elders — they just wouldn’t have been associated with a church yet.” Can you expound a bit? Which people–Oliver and Joseph?

I raised this question once on the MADB board.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/7282-date-of-melchizedek-priesthood-restoration/page__p__183180__fromsearch__1&#entry183180

But I got very little response. I did not bring up Quinn’s research, even though I had read it. It is a difficult topic for non-heretics.

My own faith is that the Melchizedek Priesthood was restored at Father Whitmer’s chamber BY REVELATION. This occurred in 1829 before the church was organized.

When Peter, James and John appeared to Joseph and Oliver in 1830 the restored the Apostleship, not the Priesthood.

Read carefully this account from Church history:

http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHistory/v1c7history.html

We now became anxious to have that promise realized to us, which the angel that conferred upon us the Aaronic Priesthood had given us, viz., that provided we continued faithful, we should also have the Melchizedek Priesthood, which holds the authority of the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[They were together hoping to receive the fulfillment of the promised Melchizedek Priesthood.]

We had for some time made this matter a subject of humble prayer, and at length we got together in the chamber of Mr. Whitmer’s house, in order more particularly to seek of the Lord what we now so earnestly desired; and here, to our unspeakable satisfaction, did we realize the truth of the Savior’s promise–”Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you”

[So this states that their prayer for this fulfillment was answered!]

–for we had not long been engaged in solemn and fervent prayer, when the word of the Lord came unto us in the chamber, commanding us that I should ordain Oliver Cowdery to be an Elder in the Church of Jesus Christ; and that he also should ordain me to the same office; and then to ordain others, as it should be made known unto us from time to time.

[Clearly, BY REVELATION, they were commanded to ordain each other to offices in the Melchizedek Priesthood. Hmm. How could they do that if they did not have the Priesthood? The revelation must have given them the Priesthood.]

We were, however, commanded to defer this our ordination until such times as it should be practicable to have our brethren, who had been and who should be baptized, assembled together, when we must have their sanction to our thus proceeding to ordain each other, and have them decide by vote whether they were willing to accept us as spiritual teachers or not; when also we were commanded to bless bread and break it with them, and to take wine, bless it, and drink it with them; afterward proceed to ordain each other according to commandment;

[Since all things are to be done by common consent, the Lord however tells them they must get the consent of the church members before doing these ordinations.]

…then call out such men as the Spirit should dictate, and ordain them; and then attend to the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, upon all those whom we had previously baptized, doing all things in the name of the Lord.

[Thus, by this revelation, they had the Priesthood, and could pass it to others as directed by the Holy Ghost.]

My own faith is that the reason they could receive the Melchizedek Priesthood by revelations is because they had been “foreordained” to it in the Spirit pre-existence. Thus they did not need to be “ordained” again– they only needed revelation to activate the Priesthood given to them as spirits.

Richard

One of the advantages of being a relatively small church is that average involved members (at least in the US) do get to know your equiv of “General Authorities” on a first name basis. These guys (and in our case, ladies) do walk the walk, because they sincerely hold the theological positions they are trying to teach the people. Indeed, all of the rumors and between the lines reading that I can find seems to indicate that the leadership believes it should pull the church into a more radical peace and justice direction than it has, but holds back to avoid shattering the church in the process (think Episcopalian).

It may be a case of spending too much time in an academic/ecclesiastical echo box in formulating positions, or of having been burned so badly by conservative opposition to more modest steps they and their predecessors took in the 1980s that they distrust conservative worldviews and view progressive protestantism as more friendly. But their views are deeply and passionately held, in some cases to the point of accepting martyrdom if that should be required.

I can’t even prove that their positions are wrong about what the church is supposed to do. I can merely prove that if they have correctly defined the mission, the maintenance of our denomination is rapidly becoming superfluous to mission achievement. And I’m pretty sure that by ignoring some of the deepest resources God provided the Restoration, we’re making completion of the mission harder not just for us, but for all of God’s people.

I’ve always heard that the CoC wants to act more protestant, and every time I’ve heard that by LDS members, it is always meant in disdain (and makes me cringe.) Firetag, what do you make of such a comment–is it true that the CoC wants to appear more protestant?

the CofChrist is definitely doing some self-reflection and trying to find some balance of maintaining a unique identity while at the same time situating themselves as part of the broader Christian tradition. There is no longer any ritual or authoritative exclusivism as can be found in the LDS Church. While they still maintain a similar hierarchy, they see the hierarchy today in a manner similar to those of other leading councils in various Christian denominations. While they still maintain the BofM as part of their cannon, there are many who have no acquaintance with the text. I recall reading an article a few years back by a professor at their theological seminary about a student who wished to do an independent study of the BofM and their not being any in the school who had ever read it. On a couple occasion I have had the opportunity to talk with one of their Apostles Susan Skoor who is a certainly a wonderful woman.

There are many things about the CofC that I find very appealing, though I am not too fond of their distancing themselves from the foundational stories of the restoration. As Firetag pointed out, they are very much into peace and justice lately, which I find as their most appealing aspect.

A few years ago I wrote a paper comparing the LDS and CofC responses to 9/11 and the war in Iraq that you might find interesting. You can read it here: http://loydo38.blogspot.com/2007/05/comparison-of-lds-and-community-of.html.

I welcome your heresy!

Email me at mormon heretic at gmail dot com, and I will be happy to do a guest post for you here in a few weeks. I have always been curious about the differences between CoC and LDS, and you seem to know the differences pretty well.