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	<title>Comments on: Jewish, Muslim, and Academic Perspectives on Abraham</title>
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	<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/02/jewish-muslim-and-academic-perspectives-on-abraham/</link>
	<description>Stuff they don't talk about in Sunday School</description>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/02/jewish-muslim-and-academic-perspectives-on-abraham/comment-page-1/#comment-4572</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 03:50:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=62#comment-4572</guid>
		<description>VIXI, from your comments, you appear to be Muslim, or at least quite educated about Islam.  Do you have any reservations in the story that Allah would really command Abraham to perform human sacrifice?  That is the biggest ethical dilemma in the story, and even if we assume Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael, this God-given commandment to kill one&#039;s own son raises some MAJOR ethical problems.  I know we all try to follow Abraham&#039;s example, but I don&#039;t believe that Muslims believe God would command them to sacrifice their own son.  Certainly Christians would expect such a command to originate from the devil if someone today claimed God told someone to kill his son.

Most Christians never question the Abrahamic sacrifice, because I don&#039;t think very many really ponder this seemingly contradictory command.  I suspect few Muslims really consider the ethical contradiction in this story.  Do you know if any Muslim scholars question whether this was an Allah-given command?  Given that child sacrifice was a common practice during Abraham&#039;s lifetime, it seems to me that Abraham&#039;s imagination could have led him astray; but Jews, Muslims, and Christians generally use this story for purposes that God was involved and intervened at the appropriate time.  Yet it seems to me that theologians neglect the historical context of the story.

I must say that I am fascinated with the Muslim interpretation of this story, but I find the same ethical problems exist:  why would God command Abraham to sacrifice his own child?  The command seems incongruent with a God who commands us not to kill.  Does Islam attempt to answer this apparent paradox?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>VIXI, from your comments, you appear to be Muslim, or at least quite educated about Islam.  Do you have any reservations in the story that Allah would really command Abraham to perform human sacrifice?  That is the biggest ethical dilemma in the story, and even if we assume Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael, this God-given commandment to kill one&#8217;s own son raises some MAJOR ethical problems.  I know we all try to follow Abraham&#8217;s example, but I don&#8217;t believe that Muslims believe God would command them to sacrifice their own son.  Certainly Christians would expect such a command to originate from the devil if someone today claimed God told someone to kill his son.</p>
<p>Most Christians never question the Abrahamic sacrifice, because I don&#8217;t think very many really ponder this seemingly contradictory command.  I suspect few Muslims really consider the ethical contradiction in this story.  Do you know if any Muslim scholars question whether this was an Allah-given command?  Given that child sacrifice was a common practice during Abraham&#8217;s lifetime, it seems to me that Abraham&#8217;s imagination could have led him astray; but Jews, Muslims, and Christians generally use this story for purposes that God was involved and intervened at the appropriate time.  Yet it seems to me that theologians neglect the historical context of the story.</p>
<p>I must say that I am fascinated with the Muslim interpretation of this story, but I find the same ethical problems exist:  why would God command Abraham to sacrifice his own child?  The command seems incongruent with a God who commands us not to kill.  Does Islam attempt to answer this apparent paradox?</p>
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		<title>By: VIXI</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/02/jewish-muslim-and-academic-perspectives-on-abraham/comment-page-1/#comment-4563</link>
		<dc:creator>VIXI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 19:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=62#comment-4563</guid>
		<description>Abraham leaving his beloved son Ishmael in Macca ( Saudi Arabia) is nothing to do with Sara`s jealousy or command, infact God seemed to have loved &amp; appeared to Hajar &amp; not Sara He is the decision maker, but kept Ishmael`s seed aside for the future and that is what is now Islam. He knew that the covenant with the once favoured Israelites will be finished and given to a new people with new language and a new book after the final hebrew Prophet JESUS was rejected, and that is MOHAMMAD &amp; ISLAM.
The Bible does prophesis Maaca / Baaca, the yearly Haj pilgrimage standing, shoulder to shouder, &amp; the new prophet for the people of KEDAR ( Ishmael`s son ). The Bible states that Hajar represent God. The ten commandements came in ARABIA on mt Sier.
Jews used to call their first sons Ishmael till the problems with Muslims, cause they know the truth and are hiding it, while Christians just follow</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abraham leaving his beloved son Ishmael in Macca ( Saudi Arabia) is nothing to do with Sara`s jealousy or command, infact God seemed to have loved &amp; appeared to Hajar &amp; not Sara He is the decision maker, but kept Ishmael`s seed aside for the future and that is what is now Islam. He knew that the covenant with the once favoured Israelites will be finished and given to a new people with new language and a new book after the final hebrew Prophet JESUS was rejected, and that is MOHAMMAD &amp; ISLAM.<br />
The Bible does prophesis Maaca / Baaca, the yearly Haj pilgrimage standing, shoulder to shouder, &amp; the new prophet for the people of KEDAR ( Ishmael`s son ). The Bible states that Hajar represent God. The ten commandements came in ARABIA on mt Sier.<br />
Jews used to call their first sons Ishmael till the problems with Muslims, cause they know the truth and are hiding it, while Christians just follow</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic &#187; Balaam: Prophet, Wicked One, Both, Neither?</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/02/jewish-muslim-and-academic-perspectives-on-abraham/comment-page-1/#comment-3693</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic &#187; Balaam: Prophet, Wicked One, Both, Neither?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 21:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=62#comment-3693</guid>
		<description>[...] Tara and I have been discussing several topics, such as the Priesthood Ban, Polygamy, and Abraham, and the story of Balaam always seems to come up.  She takes the position that Balaam is a fallen [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Tara and I have been discussing several topics, such as the Priesthood Ban, Polygamy, and Abraham, and the story of Balaam always seems to come up.  She takes the position that Balaam is a fallen [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Comparing the Book of Abraham and the Gospel of Judas</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/02/jewish-muslim-and-academic-perspectives-on-abraham/comment-page-1/#comment-2600</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Comparing the Book of Abraham and the Gospel of Judas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=62#comment-2600</guid>
		<description>[...] where Abraham destroys his father&#8217;s idols is quite similar to a Koranic tale.  Then my second post on Abraham, I learned that this story is also found in the Jewish Midrash, so there is another non-biblical [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] where Abraham destroys his father&#8217;s idols is quite similar to a Koranic tale.  Then my second post on Abraham, I learned that this story is also found in the Jewish Midrash, so there is another non-biblical [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/02/jewish-muslim-and-academic-perspectives-on-abraham/comment-page-1/#comment-1839</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 04:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=62#comment-1839</guid>
		<description>That Allen Fletcher book looks interesting.  Fawn Brodie&#039;s book is on my &quot;to-read&quot; list, and I&#039;ve read Grant Palmer&#039;s Mormon Origins book.  I&#039;d also encourage you to read Rough Stone Rolling.  I was looking for my copy, but I can&#039;t find it right now.

I need to do a post on Judas.  That&#039;s a real interest of mine, and is on my &quot;to-do&quot; list for future posts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That Allen Fletcher book looks interesting.  Fawn Brodie&#8217;s book is on my &#8220;to-read&#8221; list, and I&#8217;ve read Grant Palmer&#8217;s Mormon Origins book.  I&#8217;d also encourage you to read Rough Stone Rolling.  I was looking for my copy, but I can&#8217;t find it right now.</p>
<p>I need to do a post on Judas.  That&#8217;s a real interest of mine, and is on my &#8220;to-do&#8221; list for future posts.</p>
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		<title>By: Fanny</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/02/jewish-muslim-and-academic-perspectives-on-abraham/comment-page-1/#comment-1838</link>
		<dc:creator>Fanny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 23:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=62#comment-1838</guid>
		<description>I have only just begun to dig into the authenticity issue, so would not qualify myself as an authority.  One of the books I read was by Allen Fletcher, A Guide to the Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham.  I just finished Fawn Brodies, No Man Knows My History and am currently reading Mormon Origins and both concer with Fletchers findings that Joseph Smith claimed to translate the book of Abraham from the scrolls which were soon after discovered to be funeral documents.  I wish Joseph would have said he was inspired to write the Book of Abraham.  Then there would be no controversy.  

Thanks for the Book of Judas references.  And thanks for the blog.  I enjoy reading all of your comments!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have only just begun to dig into the authenticity issue, so would not qualify myself as an authority.  One of the books I read was by Allen Fletcher, A Guide to the Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham.  I just finished Fawn Brodies, No Man Knows My History and am currently reading Mormon Origins and both concer with Fletchers findings that Joseph Smith claimed to translate the book of Abraham from the scrolls which were soon after discovered to be funeral documents.  I wish Joseph would have said he was inspired to write the Book of Abraham.  Then there would be no controversy.  </p>
<p>Thanks for the Book of Judas references.  And thanks for the blog.  I enjoy reading all of your comments!</p>
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		<title>By: mormon heretic</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/02/jewish-muslim-and-academic-perspectives-on-abraham/comment-page-1/#comment-1832</link>
		<dc:creator>mormon heretic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 13:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=62#comment-1832</guid>
		<description>Fanny,

I am aware of some of the authenticity problems, but have not studied it well.  Do you have some sources that you find compelling?

I will say that soon after the Gospel of Judas was discovered, someone published a fragment of the book on the internet, and at the time, it was widely considered a fraud, because the fragment displayed had nothing to do with Judas.

Ancient books were often combined with other books.  Often there was no relationship to each other.  So, when this fragment was published, the conventional wisdom was that the Gospel of Judas had never really been found.

However, the book has been found.  The story of its&#039; discovery is a real &quot;cloak and dagger&quot; story.  I&#039;ve read 2 books on Judas, and I can&#039;t remember if it is found in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Judas-Second-Rodolphe-Kasser/dp/142620048X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1239197824&amp;sr=8-1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Randolph Kasser&#039;s book&lt;/a&gt;, or &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Gospel-Judas-Iscariot-Betrayer/dp/0195343514/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1239197824&amp;sr=8-4&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Bart Ehrman&#039;s book&lt;/a&gt;.  (Perhaps the story is in both, as they both participated in the translation.)    The first book contains the actual translation, which I found interesting (and is a short read).  Bart&#039;s book provides some excellent commentary.

Anyway, I know that Hugh Nibley speculated that the funeral scroll which was found and discovered to be different than the Book of Abraham might have come from another scroll.  At first, I thought this idea was crazy, wishful thinking on Nibley&#039;s part, but after I read that a similar scenario happened with the Gospel of Judas, then I realized that Nibley&#039;s scenario is quite legitimate.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;When I make intentional sacrifices in the name of God, should I get blessings?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s a really interesting question.  Sacrament talks often say &quot;yes&quot;, and often it&#039;s true.  But on the other hand, it has to be God&#039;s will, and sometimes it isn&#039;t.  I guess we need to be open to the possibility either way, but usually we only want a &quot;yes&quot; answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fanny,</p>
<p>I am aware of some of the authenticity problems, but have not studied it well.  Do you have some sources that you find compelling?</p>
<p>I will say that soon after the Gospel of Judas was discovered, someone published a fragment of the book on the internet, and at the time, it was widely considered a fraud, because the fragment displayed had nothing to do with Judas.</p>
<p>Ancient books were often combined with other books.  Often there was no relationship to each other.  So, when this fragment was published, the conventional wisdom was that the Gospel of Judas had never really been found.</p>
<p>However, the book has been found.  The story of its&#8217; discovery is a real &#8220;cloak and dagger&#8221; story.  I&#8217;ve read 2 books on Judas, and I can&#8217;t remember if it is found in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Judas-Second-Rodolphe-Kasser/dp/142620048X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1239197824&#038;sr=8-1" rel="nofollow">Randolph Kasser&#8217;s book</a>, or <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Gospel-Judas-Iscariot-Betrayer/dp/0195343514/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1239197824&#038;sr=8-4" rel="nofollow">Bart Ehrman&#8217;s book</a>.  (Perhaps the story is in both, as they both participated in the translation.)    The first book contains the actual translation, which I found interesting (and is a short read).  Bart&#8217;s book provides some excellent commentary.</p>
<p>Anyway, I know that Hugh Nibley speculated that the funeral scroll which was found and discovered to be different than the Book of Abraham might have come from another scroll.  At first, I thought this idea was crazy, wishful thinking on Nibley&#8217;s part, but after I read that a similar scenario happened with the Gospel of Judas, then I realized that Nibley&#8217;s scenario is quite legitimate.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;When I make intentional sacrifices in the name of God, should I get blessings?&#8221;</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s a really interesting question.  Sacrament talks often say &#8220;yes&#8221;, and often it&#8217;s true.  But on the other hand, it has to be God&#8217;s will, and sometimes it isn&#8217;t.  I guess we need to be open to the possibility either way, but usually we only want a &#8220;yes&#8221; answer.</p>
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		<title>By: Fanny</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/02/jewish-muslim-and-academic-perspectives-on-abraham/comment-page-1/#comment-1829</link>
		<dc:creator>Fanny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 02:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=62#comment-1829</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;One story not found in the Bible, is the story of Abraham destroying his father’s idols. Mormons are familiar with the story from the Book of Abraham, but similar stories are also found in the Jewish Midrash, and Muslim Koran.
&lt;/em&gt;
This was very interesting to me since I have recently been studying the authenticity of the Book of Abraham.  I had just about given up all hope, but this little tidbit helps Joseph redeem his book.  Thanks.  

I&#039;m also interested in the broader idea of sacrifice.  I believe that sacrifice strengthens our souls, but does intentionally giving something up or putting ourselves in a challenging situation in the name of God, purchase blessings?  Did Abrahams willingness to put himself in a challenging situation purchase blessings for him and his future family/nations?  When I make intentional sacrifices in the name of God, should I get blessings?

p.s. I take most scripture stories with a grain of salt because I don&#039;t think the true story has made it through the miriad translations that the bible has been through.  Plus, every event, even a recent event can be interpreted differently by every participant.  That said, I do enjoy the discussion!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>One story not found in the Bible, is the story of Abraham destroying his father’s idols. Mormons are familiar with the story from the Book of Abraham, but similar stories are also found in the Jewish Midrash, and Muslim Koran.<br />
</em><br />
This was very interesting to me since I have recently been studying the authenticity of the Book of Abraham.  I had just about given up all hope, but this little tidbit helps Joseph redeem his book.  Thanks.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m also interested in the broader idea of sacrifice.  I believe that sacrifice strengthens our souls, but does intentionally giving something up or putting ourselves in a challenging situation in the name of God, purchase blessings?  Did Abrahams willingness to put himself in a challenging situation purchase blessings for him and his future family/nations?  When I make intentional sacrifices in the name of God, should I get blessings?</p>
<p>p.s. I take most scripture stories with a grain of salt because I don&#8217;t think the true story has made it through the miriad translations that the bible has been through.  Plus, every event, even a recent event can be interpreted differently by every participant.  That said, I do enjoy the discussion!</p>
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		<title>By: Coming to terms with atheism &#171; Irresistible (Dis)Grace</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/02/jewish-muslim-and-academic-perspectives-on-abraham/comment-page-1/#comment-1824</link>
		<dc:creator>Coming to terms with atheism &#171; Irresistible (Dis)Grace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Apr 2009 04:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=62#comment-1824</guid>
		<description>[...] in a way, who can blame them? As Mormon Heretic wrote, the idea that God would command Abraham to sacrifice Isaac gets at our senses and sensibilities. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in a way, who can blame them? As Mormon Heretic wrote, the idea that God would command Abraham to sacrifice Isaac gets at our senses and sensibilities. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/04/02/jewish-muslim-and-academic-perspectives-on-abraham/comment-page-1/#comment-1823</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 23:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=62#comment-1823</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s an interesting perspective, FD, but I tend to see the Lord&#039;s stamp of approval when he gives the same blessing to Ishmael as he does to Isaac.  &lt;i&gt;“I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.”&lt;/i&gt;

This is very similar to the promise given to Isaac in Gen 17:19 &lt;i&gt;And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him. &lt;/i&gt;

Even between the mothers, there is an obvious tug of war over who is the &quot;chosen&quot; son.  The fact of the matter is that God loves Isaac and Ishmael equally.  To infer God loves one over the other makes God partial in a stupid sibling rivalry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s an interesting perspective, FD, but I tend to see the Lord&#8217;s stamp of approval when he gives the same blessing to Ishmael as he does to Isaac.  <i>“I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.”</i></p>
<p>This is very similar to the promise given to Isaac in Gen 17:19 <i>And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him. </i></p>
<p>Even between the mothers, there is an obvious tug of war over who is the &#8220;chosen&#8221; son.  The fact of the matter is that God loves Isaac and Ishmael equally.  To infer God loves one over the other makes God partial in a stupid sibling rivalry.</p>
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