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	<title>Comments on: Sidney &amp; Joseph &#8211; A Strained Friendship &#8211; Part 4</title>
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	<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/03/27/sidney-joseph-a-strained-friendship-part-4/</link>
	<description>Stuff they don't talk about in Sunday School</description>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/03/27/sidney-joseph-a-strained-friendship-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-1967</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 05:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=343#comment-1967</guid>
		<description>James,

Go ahead and post it on your blog.  It is kind of off-topic here, but very on topic for your blog.

Are you sure you want to go down this road?  I have plenty of statements from world-renown scholars, and would be willing to post multiple statements from scholars with PhD next to their name affirming that Joseph had multiple wives.  I am aware that all of my sources quote RLDS historians affirming the fact that Joseph had multiple wives.  If you prefer RLDS scholars, I would even limit my sources to RLDS-only.

James, I am not trying to tear down your faith.  I really respect CoC members such as yourself.  My main purpose is to post accurate, historical information, regardless of whether it is &quot;church-approved.&quot;

I know many people struggle when the stories they were told as children turn out to be untrue, or half-true.  Many people become disillusioned, and want to leave the church.  My site is to talk about tough issues, and remain faithful.  I know you are CoC (RLDS), and I want you to stay active CoC, but I want you to have accurate information if that is your desire.

Not all people have that desire.  My wife and mother-in-law prefer to keep their blissful ignorance, and I fully respect that.  But if you want to learn hard facts about Joseph Smith, this is a place to learn without destroying faith.  I believe Joseph was a prophet of God, and I also believe that he was fallible and made mistakes.  Polygamy was a big mistake, and anyone who blames the whole episode on Brigham Young (such as yourself) is mistaken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>Go ahead and post it on your blog.  It is kind of off-topic here, but very on topic for your blog.</p>
<p>Are you sure you want to go down this road?  I have plenty of statements from world-renown scholars, and would be willing to post multiple statements from scholars with PhD next to their name affirming that Joseph had multiple wives.  I am aware that all of my sources quote RLDS historians affirming the fact that Joseph had multiple wives.  If you prefer RLDS scholars, I would even limit my sources to RLDS-only.</p>
<p>James, I am not trying to tear down your faith.  I really respect CoC members such as yourself.  My main purpose is to post accurate, historical information, regardless of whether it is &#8220;church-approved.&#8221;</p>
<p>I know many people struggle when the stories they were told as children turn out to be untrue, or half-true.  Many people become disillusioned, and want to leave the church.  My site is to talk about tough issues, and remain faithful.  I know you are CoC (RLDS), and I want you to stay active CoC, but I want you to have accurate information if that is your desire.</p>
<p>Not all people have that desire.  My wife and mother-in-law prefer to keep their blissful ignorance, and I fully respect that.  But if you want to learn hard facts about Joseph Smith, this is a place to learn without destroying faith.  I believe Joseph was a prophet of God, and I also believe that he was fallible and made mistakes.  Polygamy was a big mistake, and anyone who blames the whole episode on Brigham Young (such as yourself) is mistaken.</p>
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		<title>By: James Brian Marshall</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/03/27/sidney-joseph-a-strained-friendship-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-1966</link>
		<dc:creator>James Brian Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 04:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=343#comment-1966</guid>
		<description>MH,


Correction, Joseph Smith only had one wife. LDS history, RLDS history, as well as the testimonies of thousands of whitnesses testify to this fact. 


Would you believe the words of a child molester? Or trust the words of a confirmed criminal?  Would you let a murderer preach to you about Christ after he&#039;d just killed somone?

The Salt Lake Church is all of these, yet you trust their words about Joseph Smith. 

I suggest you consider the source of your information.
And the foundation upon which the information your recieve come from.  For murder, molestation and criminal ambition it was built upon.  

I know, I live in Arkansas, in the very area many of the people from the Mountain Medows Massecre came from.  I actually know  some of their reletives. 

The RLDS Church has very little to loose.  The Utah Church has 22+ Billion reasons per year to loose if they&#039;re found out by their members to have lied abouty Smith... 

  My first  question to you is where do you want the proof sent to? I can send it here to your blog, Or I can post it upon my blog. Or if you want to send me your email address to jbrianmarshall@gmail.com...

I hope I made my point without being to rude?

God Bless

James Brian Marshall</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MH,</p>
<p>Correction, Joseph Smith only had one wife. LDS history, RLDS history, as well as the testimonies of thousands of whitnesses testify to this fact. </p>
<p>Would you believe the words of a child molester? Or trust the words of a confirmed criminal?  Would you let a murderer preach to you about Christ after he&#8217;d just killed somone?</p>
<p>The Salt Lake Church is all of these, yet you trust their words about Joseph Smith. </p>
<p>I suggest you consider the source of your information.<br />
And the foundation upon which the information your recieve come from.  For murder, molestation and criminal ambition it was built upon.  </p>
<p>I know, I live in Arkansas, in the very area many of the people from the Mountain Medows Massecre came from.  I actually know  some of their reletives. </p>
<p>The RLDS Church has very little to loose.  The Utah Church has 22+ Billion reasons per year to loose if they&#8217;re found out by their members to have lied abouty Smith&#8230; </p>
<p>  My first  question to you is where do you want the proof sent to? I can send it here to your blog, Or I can post it upon my blog. Or if you want to send me your email address to <a href="mailto:jbrianmarshall@gmail.com">jbrianmarshall@gmail.com</a>&#8230;</p>
<p>I hope I made my point without being to rude?</p>
<p>God Bless</p>
<p>James Brian Marshall</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Smith&#8217;s Presidential Platform &#8212; Mormon Heretic</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/03/27/sidney-joseph-a-strained-friendship-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-1954</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Smith&#8217;s Presidential Platform &#8212; Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=343#comment-1954</guid>
		<description>[...] Presidential authority to get involved in state disturbances.  As I mentioned in my Sidney Rigdon post, Van Buren refused to get involved in Missouri because he didn&#8217;t feel that was a federal [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Presidential authority to get involved in state disturbances.  As I mentioned in my Sidney Rigdon post, Van Buren refused to get involved in Missouri because he didn&#8217;t feel that was a federal [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/03/27/sidney-joseph-a-strained-friendship-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-1952</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=343#comment-1952</guid>
		<description>James, thanks for the compliments.  Joseph had many wives, but certainly not 47,000.  I can give you some good references of books if you like (besides this Sidney Rigdon book), and I&#039;m sure some of my new posts will reference the topic again in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, thanks for the compliments.  Joseph had many wives, but certainly not 47,000.  I can give you some good references of books if you like (besides this Sidney Rigdon book), and I&#8217;m sure some of my new posts will reference the topic again in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: James Brian Marshall</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/03/27/sidney-joseph-a-strained-friendship-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-1944</link>
		<dc:creator>James Brian Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 03:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=343#comment-1944</guid>
		<description>Mormon Heritic,

My complements to your blog. You obviously have put in a lot of work! 
I started blogging about a year ago, I love writing, but am an amature compared to yourself.  But I was raised to stick with it! So in time I&#039;m sure I&#039;ll become a better writer...  Which brings me to the point I&#039;m making, which is I never realized how hard blogging can be! It is an art which you&#039;ve mastered wonderfully! 

As for responding to the charges Joseph Smith was married to 47,000 wives? I&#039;ll respond but I&#039;ve got to dig for history! For some reason Jesus gifted me with an eye for detail, a passion for history and the will to dig and investigate.  And if the History is there I usually find it! And if it is true I publish it! 

And if the history commonly published it&#039;s not true, I publish the fact...

  So I promise you it will be good stuff!  

http://rldsincourt.blogspot.com/

Sincerely 

James Brian Marshall</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mormon Heritic,</p>
<p>My complements to your blog. You obviously have put in a lot of work!<br />
I started blogging about a year ago, I love writing, but am an amature compared to yourself.  But I was raised to stick with it! So in time I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;ll become a better writer&#8230;  Which brings me to the point I&#8217;m making, which is I never realized how hard blogging can be! It is an art which you&#8217;ve mastered wonderfully! </p>
<p>As for responding to the charges Joseph Smith was married to 47,000 wives? I&#8217;ll respond but I&#8217;ve got to dig for history! For some reason Jesus gifted me with an eye for detail, a passion for history and the will to dig and investigate.  And if the History is there I usually find it! And if it is true I publish it! </p>
<p>And if the history commonly published it&#8217;s not true, I publish the fact&#8230;</p>
<p>  So I promise you it will be good stuff!  </p>
<p><a href="http://rldsincourt.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://rldsincourt.blogspot.com/</a></p>
<p>Sincerely </p>
<p>James Brian Marshall</p>
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		<title>By: Jewish, Muslim, and Academic Perspectives on Abraham &#8212; Mormon Heretic</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/03/27/sidney-joseph-a-strained-friendship-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-1854</link>
		<dc:creator>Jewish, Muslim, and Academic Perspectives on Abraham &#8212; Mormon Heretic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Apr 2009 18:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=343#comment-1854</guid>
		<description>[...] reference Abraham when talking about things like Joshua’s Unholy War, the Priesthood Ban, or polygamy. Usually the reference is to the sacrifice of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reference Abraham when talking about things like Joshua’s Unholy War, the Priesthood Ban, or polygamy. Usually the reference is to the sacrifice of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/03/27/sidney-joseph-a-strained-friendship-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-1798</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 04:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=343#comment-1798</guid>
		<description>FD, I hope you have a safe trip.  The jetlag might not be too bad since you&#039;re heading west, but I&#039;m sure it will be terrible when you get back home.  I know when I head west to Hawaii, the first few days I&#039;m an early bird, getting up at 5 or 6 AM.  Returning home is always hard to adjust back to the schedule.

I do want to say that I find it hard to believe that Emma claimed her first knowledge of any polygamy revelation was in 1853.  The Nauvoo Expositor in 1844 talked about a spiritual wife revelation, prompting Joseph to react.  The Coolidge conversation took place in 1846.  There were even rumors of polygamy in the Relief Society of which Emma was president, which she attacked vigorously.  The Kirtland years also had rumors of polygamy around 1838.  I have a real hard time believing she wasn&#039;t aware of the Nancy Rigdon incident.

Perhaps she concluded all the previous comments were vicious lies and rumors, and in 1853, she finally saw some sort of written evidence to cause her to rethink her position.  I do know that she tried to pin polygamy on Brigham Young.  In response, Brigham had women prepare notarized affidavits saying they were sealed to Joseph.  I suspect these affidavits happened around 1853.  I know her son David was devastated by these affidavits, as he had served a mission in Utah (trying to convert the LDS to RLDS, and had some success) and David talked personally with some of the women claiming to be Joseph&#039;s wives.

Fanny, thanks for stopping by.  I agree with your line of reasoning about Emma.  One minor clarification is that Emma&#039;s comment about Joseph getting what he deserved was made just 2 years after Joseph&#039;s death in 1846.  I encourage you to check out FD&#039;s blog about her deathbed confession, which basically tried to disclaim that Joseph participated in polygamy.  Given the evidence, I don&#039;t understand how she could make such a statement.

I hadn&#039;t originally planned on talking about the authenticity of the Book of Abraham, but perhaps I&#039;ll expand my post.  I must confess I am aware of authenticity issues, but I haven&#039;t studied those issues deeply.  I&#039;d planned on talking mostly about Biblical stories of Abraham, with a little Koran mixed in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FD, I hope you have a safe trip.  The jetlag might not be too bad since you&#8217;re heading west, but I&#8217;m sure it will be terrible when you get back home.  I know when I head west to Hawaii, the first few days I&#8217;m an early bird, getting up at 5 or 6 AM.  Returning home is always hard to adjust back to the schedule.</p>
<p>I do want to say that I find it hard to believe that Emma claimed her first knowledge of any polygamy revelation was in 1853.  The Nauvoo Expositor in 1844 talked about a spiritual wife revelation, prompting Joseph to react.  The Coolidge conversation took place in 1846.  There were even rumors of polygamy in the Relief Society of which Emma was president, which she attacked vigorously.  The Kirtland years also had rumors of polygamy around 1838.  I have a real hard time believing she wasn&#8217;t aware of the Nancy Rigdon incident.</p>
<p>Perhaps she concluded all the previous comments were vicious lies and rumors, and in 1853, she finally saw some sort of written evidence to cause her to rethink her position.  I do know that she tried to pin polygamy on Brigham Young.  In response, Brigham had women prepare notarized affidavits saying they were sealed to Joseph.  I suspect these affidavits happened around 1853.  I know her son David was devastated by these affidavits, as he had served a mission in Utah (trying to convert the LDS to RLDS, and had some success) and David talked personally with some of the women claiming to be Joseph&#8217;s wives.</p>
<p>Fanny, thanks for stopping by.  I agree with your line of reasoning about Emma.  One minor clarification is that Emma&#8217;s comment about Joseph getting what he deserved was made just 2 years after Joseph&#8217;s death in 1846.  I encourage you to check out FD&#8217;s blog about her deathbed confession, which basically tried to disclaim that Joseph participated in polygamy.  Given the evidence, I don&#8217;t understand how she could make such a statement.</p>
<p>I hadn&#8217;t originally planned on talking about the authenticity of the Book of Abraham, but perhaps I&#8217;ll expand my post.  I must confess I am aware of authenticity issues, but I haven&#8217;t studied those issues deeply.  I&#8217;d planned on talking mostly about Biblical stories of Abraham, with a little Koran mixed in.</p>
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		<title>By: Fanny</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/03/27/sidney-joseph-a-strained-friendship-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-1796</link>
		<dc:creator>Fanny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 21:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=343#comment-1796</guid>
		<description>The sense I get from my research is that certainly Emma opposed polygamy but that Joseph did it behind her back.  I personally think she was a proper woman of the times and didn&#039;t want to acknowledge the situation for what it was.  Josephs position made it so that he had plenty of opportunity to be about town and with people so he was above common suspition.  I believe Emma knew the truth in her heart and that accounts for her death bed comment about Joseph getting what he deserved but during her life she pretended not to know and saved herself the embarrasment of her husbands unfaithfulness.  

I, too look forward to a discussion on the book of Abraham.  At its very core I question its authenticity.  I wonder about Joseph creating it to support his own notions but welcome a discussion on the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sense I get from my research is that certainly Emma opposed polygamy but that Joseph did it behind her back.  I personally think she was a proper woman of the times and didn&#8217;t want to acknowledge the situation for what it was.  Josephs position made it so that he had plenty of opportunity to be about town and with people so he was above common suspition.  I believe Emma knew the truth in her heart and that accounts for her death bed comment about Joseph getting what he deserved but during her life she pretended not to know and saved herself the embarrasment of her husbands unfaithfulness.  </p>
<p>I, too look forward to a discussion on the book of Abraham.  At its very core I question its authenticity.  I wonder about Joseph creating it to support his own notions but welcome a discussion on the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: TheFaithfulDissident</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/03/27/sidney-joseph-a-strained-friendship-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-1794</link>
		<dc:creator>TheFaithfulDissident</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=343#comment-1794</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a very interesting interpretation, MH.  I&#039;ve never thought of it that way, so I look forward to your Abraham post.  Your posts are so interesting that you&#039;ve been distracting me from packing.  :)  I will have to catch up once I get to Canada and have some time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a very interesting interpretation, MH.  I&#8217;ve never thought of it that way, so I look forward to your Abraham post.  Your posts are so interesting that you&#8217;ve been distracting me from packing.  <img src='http://www.mormonheretic.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   I will have to catch up once I get to Canada and have some time.</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/03/27/sidney-joseph-a-strained-friendship-part-4/comment-page-1/#comment-1793</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 17:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=343#comment-1793</guid>
		<description>I go with C.  As for Abraham, I guess it is time to do my post on him.  Abraham did some things that I find disturbing as well, and the sacrifice of Isaac is at the top of my list, though not the only problem I have with him.  

Regarding Abraham, what most people don&#039;t understand is that human sacrifice, specifically the sacrifice of children was an extremely common belief at the time of Abraham.  Children were viewed as the most valuable possessions, and to sacrifice them to God (or gods as the pagan religion believed), showed a sense of piety.  So it seems that Abraham was really following other religious practices.  Christians have tried to make this a similitude of Christ, but that story is several thousand years after the time of Abraham.  

In my view, I guess the miraculous thing would be that God sent the angel to spare Isaac, but I do not believe that God commanded the sacrifice as so many Christians and Jews are taught to believe.  In my mind, this is a pretty big blunder on Abraham&#039;s part.  I better stop now, because I don&#039;t want to give away too much for a future post, but I do not believe God would ask anyone, including Abraham, to sacrifice a child.  I know a minority of scholars claim the same interpretation as I do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I go with C.  As for Abraham, I guess it is time to do my post on him.  Abraham did some things that I find disturbing as well, and the sacrifice of Isaac is at the top of my list, though not the only problem I have with him.  </p>
<p>Regarding Abraham, what most people don&#8217;t understand is that human sacrifice, specifically the sacrifice of children was an extremely common belief at the time of Abraham.  Children were viewed as the most valuable possessions, and to sacrifice them to God (or gods as the pagan religion believed), showed a sense of piety.  So it seems that Abraham was really following other religious practices.  Christians have tried to make this a similitude of Christ, but that story is several thousand years after the time of Abraham.  </p>
<p>In my view, I guess the miraculous thing would be that God sent the angel to spare Isaac, but I do not believe that God commanded the sacrifice as so many Christians and Jews are taught to believe.  In my mind, this is a pretty big blunder on Abraham&#8217;s part.  I better stop now, because I don&#8217;t want to give away too much for a future post, but I do not believe God would ask anyone, including Abraham, to sacrifice a child.  I know a minority of scholars claim the same interpretation as I do.</p>
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