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	<title>Comments on: Eastern Orthodoxy:  Theosis/Deification</title>
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	<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2008/07/30/eastern-orthodoxy-theosisdeification/</link>
	<description>Stuff they don't talk about in Sunday School</description>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2008/07/30/eastern-orthodoxy-theosisdeification/comment-page-1/#comment-13155</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Dec 2011 03:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My understanding of Eastern Orthodox doctrine of theosis is this:

Salvation is viewed as union with Christ

We become partakers of the divine nature

We become like God or godlike by grace not by nature (I think this is where the Orthodox depart from LDS theology). 

This is because the goal of humanity is to bear God&#039;s image. Since the fall, God&#039;s image has been marred and substantially hidden. Even so, humanity is still bears God&#039;s image, so the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity is rejected, as is the Augustinian doctrine of original sin. And deification is the full restoration of God&#039;s image in humanity. This was the purpose of Christ&#039;s work on earth. His life in healing and forgiving. His death and resurrection to defeat the powers of sin and death. And his ascension and exaltation the right hand of God to rule the world. All this was to restore humanity to its original purpose to be God&#039;s image bearers and stewards of his very good creation. So creation is restored with humanity. This is another point of departure with Mormonism. Because, as I understand it, in Mormonism we are taken out of this world to go to another world where we will be gods (perhaps capital &quot;G&quot; gods). In Orthodoxy, salvation is to restore this world not to take us out of it. In fact there are quite a few parallels between Mormonism and early Gnosticism. So any similarities between Orthodoxy and Mormonism are superficial in my opinion. The worldviews of the two are entirely different. 

Orthodoxy is rooted in the Trinity. Orthodoxy is utterly orthodox in Christian doctrine (small &quot;o&quot;). Mormonism is utterly heterodox. And, from an Orthodox perspective, the Mormon claim to be the restoration of Christianity is simply false and can be waved away much more easily than for a Protestant . For those looking to critique Mormonism, Orthodoxy is a very good way to go about this. Instead of the sort of &quot;line-by-line&quot; Protestant critique that is basically circular, Orthodoxy is simply able to outflank Mormon claims. They are not bound by sola scriptura. This is at the heart of Protestant difficulties in dealing with Mormonism. The scripture is part of the Holy Tradition of the church for the Orthodox and is not placed over and against the church. So scripture comes after the church and is a product of the Church, which is guided by the Holy Spirit of course. A Protestant is forced to use scripture as an independent authority because of its doctrine of sola scriptura. Therefore, there is no Holy Tradition with which to interpret it. Therefore, anyone can interpret it (Protestants would disagree with this, but it is essentially true in reality, hence the many denominations). Therefore heterodox religions such as Mormonism are born. For an Orthodox, Protestantism (which adheres to some orthodox doctrines) and Mormonism (who don&#039;t adhere to any orthodox doctrines) are different sides of the same coin. Mormonism is the direct consequence of Protestant reductionism and deconstruction of the Christian faith. Mormons have taken the quasi-gnostic Puritan ideology to their logical conclusions - the disdain for ecclesial authority, the suspicion of flesh (hence very strict rules concerning alcohol, caffeine etc), the dualism (the rapture and total depravity in Puritanism and the personal planets for Mormon gods) etc. Couple this with the Gnostic-like temple worship of Mormons and you have a religion that the Orthodox can just simply look at wave away as not an authentic representation of the Apostolic faith. It is completely foreign to the Apostolic witness. Orthodoxy completely outflanks Mormonism without having to get into the hand-to-hand type of debates fundamentalist Protestants find themselves in.

This being so, an Orthodox would never say that a Mormon is not &quot;saved&quot;. Salvation, to the Orthodox, is a mystery. Although they see the Orthodox Church as the only true church, they recognize that God&#039;s grace can still be made available outside the church. 

I wonder if anyone here has spoken to the similarity between Mormonism and early Gnosticism. I think this is one of the ways we can see clearly that Mormonism has no historical claims to be apostolic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding of Eastern Orthodox doctrine of theosis is this:</p>
<p>Salvation is viewed as union with Christ</p>
<p>We become partakers of the divine nature</p>
<p>We become like God or godlike by grace not by nature (I think this is where the Orthodox depart from LDS theology). </p>
<p>This is because the goal of humanity is to bear God&#8217;s image. Since the fall, God&#8217;s image has been marred and substantially hidden. Even so, humanity is still bears God&#8217;s image, so the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity is rejected, as is the Augustinian doctrine of original sin. And deification is the full restoration of God&#8217;s image in humanity. This was the purpose of Christ&#8217;s work on earth. His life in healing and forgiving. His death and resurrection to defeat the powers of sin and death. And his ascension and exaltation the right hand of God to rule the world. All this was to restore humanity to its original purpose to be God&#8217;s image bearers and stewards of his very good creation. So creation is restored with humanity. This is another point of departure with Mormonism. Because, as I understand it, in Mormonism we are taken out of this world to go to another world where we will be gods (perhaps capital &#8220;G&#8221; gods). In Orthodoxy, salvation is to restore this world not to take us out of it. In fact there are quite a few parallels between Mormonism and early Gnosticism. So any similarities between Orthodoxy and Mormonism are superficial in my opinion. The worldviews of the two are entirely different. </p>
<p>Orthodoxy is rooted in the Trinity. Orthodoxy is utterly orthodox in Christian doctrine (small &#8220;o&#8221;). Mormonism is utterly heterodox. And, from an Orthodox perspective, the Mormon claim to be the restoration of Christianity is simply false and can be waved away much more easily than for a Protestant . For those looking to critique Mormonism, Orthodoxy is a very good way to go about this. Instead of the sort of &#8220;line-by-line&#8221; Protestant critique that is basically circular, Orthodoxy is simply able to outflank Mormon claims. They are not bound by sola scriptura. This is at the heart of Protestant difficulties in dealing with Mormonism. The scripture is part of the Holy Tradition of the church for the Orthodox and is not placed over and against the church. So scripture comes after the church and is a product of the Church, which is guided by the Holy Spirit of course. A Protestant is forced to use scripture as an independent authority because of its doctrine of sola scriptura. Therefore, there is no Holy Tradition with which to interpret it. Therefore, anyone can interpret it (Protestants would disagree with this, but it is essentially true in reality, hence the many denominations). Therefore heterodox religions such as Mormonism are born. For an Orthodox, Protestantism (which adheres to some orthodox doctrines) and Mormonism (who don&#8217;t adhere to any orthodox doctrines) are different sides of the same coin. Mormonism is the direct consequence of Protestant reductionism and deconstruction of the Christian faith. Mormons have taken the quasi-gnostic Puritan ideology to their logical conclusions &#8211; the disdain for ecclesial authority, the suspicion of flesh (hence very strict rules concerning alcohol, caffeine etc), the dualism (the rapture and total depravity in Puritanism and the personal planets for Mormon gods) etc. Couple this with the Gnostic-like temple worship of Mormons and you have a religion that the Orthodox can just simply look at wave away as not an authentic representation of the Apostolic faith. It is completely foreign to the Apostolic witness. Orthodoxy completely outflanks Mormonism without having to get into the hand-to-hand type of debates fundamentalist Protestants find themselves in.</p>
<p>This being so, an Orthodox would never say that a Mormon is not &#8220;saved&#8221;. Salvation, to the Orthodox, is a mystery. Although they see the Orthodox Church as the only true church, they recognize that God&#8217;s grace can still be made available outside the church. </p>
<p>I wonder if anyone here has spoken to the similarity between Mormonism and early Gnosticism. I think this is one of the ways we can see clearly that Mormonism has no historical claims to be apostolic.</p>
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		<title>By: Cynthia Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2008/07/30/eastern-orthodoxy-theosisdeification/comment-page-1/#comment-8221</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynthia Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2010 04:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=58#comment-8221</guid>
		<description>Ephesians 3:14-15
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ephesians 3:14-15<br />
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named</p>
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		<title>By: Cynthia Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2008/07/30/eastern-orthodoxy-theosisdeification/comment-page-1/#comment-8220</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynthia Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Nov 2010 04:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=58#comment-8220</guid>
		<description>I find the Bible supports the LDS &quot;Mormon view&quot; in many scriptures.  First - We lived in Heaven before coming here:

Number 16:22 - God of the spirits of all flesh

Deut. 14:1 - Ye are the children of the Lord your God

Job 32:8 - There is a spirit in men

Pslams 82:6 - Ye are Gods children of the most high

Eccl 12:7 - The spirit shall return unto God who gave it

Hosea 1:10 - Ye are sons of the living God

Mathew 5:28 - Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father...

Acts 17:29 - We are the offspirg of God

Romans 8:16 - Spirit beareth witness... we are the children of God

Hebrew 12:9 - Be in subjection to the Father of your spirits

Eph 4:6 - One God and Father of all

Jeremiah 1:5 
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

1 Pet. 1:18-20 
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you.

Note:  Again talks about being foreordained before the world.  If Christ’s mission was foreordained than who were the people watching this process.  US of course.  

Titus 1:2 
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Job 38:4-7  
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Romans 8:29-30  
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom he did  predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified

Look what Psalms says:
Psalms 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Psalms 82:6 
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.  But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:


1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find the Bible supports the LDS &#8220;Mormon view&#8221; in many scriptures.  First &#8211; We lived in Heaven before coming here:</p>
<p>Number 16:22 &#8211; God of the spirits of all flesh</p>
<p>Deut. 14:1 &#8211; Ye are the children of the Lord your God</p>
<p>Job 32:8 &#8211; There is a spirit in men</p>
<p>Pslams 82:6 &#8211; Ye are Gods children of the most high</p>
<p>Eccl 12:7 &#8211; The spirit shall return unto God who gave it</p>
<p>Hosea 1:10 &#8211; Ye are sons of the living God</p>
<p>Mathew 5:28 &#8211; Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father&#8230;</p>
<p>Acts 17:29 &#8211; We are the offspirg of God</p>
<p>Romans 8:16 &#8211; Spirit beareth witness&#8230; we are the children of God</p>
<p>Hebrew 12:9 &#8211; Be in subjection to the Father of your spirits</p>
<p>Eph 4:6 &#8211; One God and Father of all</p>
<p>Jeremiah 1:5<br />
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.</p>
<p>1 Pet. 1:18-20<br />
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you.</p>
<p>Note:  Again talks about being foreordained before the world.  If Christ’s mission was foreordained than who were the people watching this process.  US of course.  </p>
<p>Titus 1:2<br />
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;</p>
<p>Job 38:4-7<br />
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?</p>
<p>Romans 8:29-30<br />
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom he did  predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified</p>
<p>Look what Psalms says:<br />
Psalms 82:1<br />
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.</p>
<p>Psalms 82:6<br />
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.  But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.</p>
<p>Deuteronomy 10:17<br />
For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:</p>
<p>1 Corinthians 3:16-17<br />
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic &#187; Can Non-LDS Obtain Salvation? Of Course!</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2008/07/30/eastern-orthodoxy-theosisdeification/comment-page-1/#comment-5708</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic &#187; Can Non-LDS Obtain Salvation? Of Course!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 May 2010 04:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=58#comment-5708</guid>
		<description>[...] been having a heated discussion over at Christian Forums.  Someone there linked to my article on Theosis.  I was a bit nervous, as these types of forums can be not only heated, but strongly biased [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] been having a heated discussion over at Christian Forums.  Someone there linked to my article on Theosis.  I was a bit nervous, as these types of forums can be not only heated, but strongly biased [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic &#187; Biblical Justification for Exaltation</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2008/07/30/eastern-orthodoxy-theosisdeification/comment-page-1/#comment-5613</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic &#187; Biblical Justification for Exaltation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Apr 2010 23:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=58#comment-5613</guid>
		<description>[...] Mormon Heretic Leave a comment Go to comments    I received a pingback from my previous post on Theosis from someone at Christian Forums.  I have another post on President Lorenzo Snow&#8217;s famous [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Mormon Heretic Leave a comment Go to comments    I received a pingback from my previous post on Theosis from someone at Christian Forums.  I have another post on President Lorenzo Snow&#8217;s famous [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mormons Doubt that their God is Infinite - Page 8 - Christian Forums</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2008/07/30/eastern-orthodoxy-theosisdeification/comment-page-1/#comment-5578</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormons Doubt that their God is Infinite - Page 8 - Christian Forums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Apr 2010 04:00:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=58#comment-5578</guid>
		<description>[...]  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mormon Heretic &#187; Mormon View of &#8216;The Lost Symbol&#8217;-Dan Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2008/07/30/eastern-orthodoxy-theosisdeification/comment-page-1/#comment-4607</link>
		<dc:creator>Mormon Heretic &#187; Mormon View of &#8216;The Lost Symbol&#8217;-Dan Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 06:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=58#comment-4607</guid>
		<description>[...] to the Mormon idea of exaltation, or the Orthodox Christian concept of theosis or deification (which I blogged about previously.)  Brown&#8217;s introduction of apotheosis seems much more pagan as he introduces the idea from [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to the Mormon idea of exaltation, or the Orthodox Christian concept of theosis or deification (which I blogged about previously.)  Brown&#8217;s introduction of apotheosis seems much more pagan as he introduces the idea from [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2008/07/30/eastern-orthodoxy-theosisdeification/comment-page-1/#comment-4532</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=58#comment-4532</guid>
		<description>Thanks Steven.  This reminds me of an interesting scripture in Isaiah 33:14-15.

&lt;i&gt;Isa 33:14  The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: &quot;Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?&quot;

Isa 33:15 	He who walks righteously and speaks what is right, who rejects gain from extortion and keeps his hand from accepting bribes, who stops his ears against plots of murder and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Steven.  This reminds me of an interesting scripture in Isaiah 33:14-15.</p>
<p><i>Isa 33:14  The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: &#8220;Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?&#8221;</p>
<p>Isa 33:15 	He who walks righteously and speaks what is right, who rejects gain from extortion and keeps his hand from accepting bribes, who stops his ears against plots of murder and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil</i></p>
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		<title>By: Steven Roberts</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2008/07/30/eastern-orthodoxy-theosisdeification/comment-page-1/#comment-4530</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=58#comment-4530</guid>
		<description>Dear Jeff,  
Another way of looking at the Orthodox understanding of Theosis is that the love of God is like a fire. Those who draw near are wormed and kept safe, but others are burned and set ablaze. 
Another way to look at it is when St. Paul says, &quot;every knee will bow and tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord forever&quot;. For those who love Christ and followed his way in their lives they will but overcome with joy that they may worship God all their life, but for those who hate Him and turned the other way, worshiping Him will be an offal task. Those who hate Him will slowly become more dammed, while those who love Him will become closer to him (hence theosis). 
One of the great saints puts it that if you form a sword and it isn&#039;t formed correctly, it will explode in the furnace that one uses to form the sword, but if it is formed correctly, when the sword enters the furnace it will become a magnificent sword ready for battle. Believing that Jesus is God is only the firs step, not the last. One must grow closer to God that when we worship him forever we must do it with joy and not with hate and malice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Jeff,<br />
Another way of looking at the Orthodox understanding of Theosis is that the love of God is like a fire. Those who draw near are wormed and kept safe, but others are burned and set ablaze.<br />
Another way to look at it is when St. Paul says, &#8220;every knee will bow and tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord forever&#8221;. For those who love Christ and followed his way in their lives they will but overcome with joy that they may worship God all their life, but for those who hate Him and turned the other way, worshiping Him will be an offal task. Those who hate Him will slowly become more dammed, while those who love Him will become closer to him (hence theosis).<br />
One of the great saints puts it that if you form a sword and it isn&#8217;t formed correctly, it will explode in the furnace that one uses to form the sword, but if it is formed correctly, when the sword enters the furnace it will become a magnificent sword ready for battle. Believing that Jesus is God is only the firs step, not the last. One must grow closer to God that when we worship him forever we must do it with joy and not with hate and malice.</p>
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		<title>By: MH</title>
		<link>http://www.mormonheretic.org/2008/07/30/eastern-orthodoxy-theosisdeification/comment-page-1/#comment-3712</link>
		<dc:creator>MH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 03:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mormonheretic.org/?p=58#comment-3712</guid>
		<description>Thanks Sotor.  That&#039;s an interesting perspective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Sotor.  That&#8217;s an interesting perspective.</p>
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